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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: 420 winged rudder
    Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:14am
Originally posted by JimC

...

Originally posted by RS400atC

Maybe it would be good to have an agreement that 'slightly out of class' boats could race,

No need. All that is needed is to inform the Race Office beforehand, gain their agreement and let them issue a different handicap if they wish.


Indeed in the case of the BM, this is from the NoR

The race is open to monohull centreboard dinghies, including Thames A Raters which
are deemed to come within that definition, that have, or would have if none currently
allocated, a PY number equal to or lower than that of the International Topper.


Other races have different wording such as ' dinghies with a recognised PY'.
QMSC couldn't really make it more open.
But on the entry form, there is a single little box 'boat class', and no invitation to detail deviation from class rules.
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:31am
Originally posted by RS400atC


Other races have different wording such as ' dinghies with a recognised PY'.
QMSC couldn't really make it more open.
But on the entry form, there is a single little box 'boat class', and no invitation to detail deviation from class rules.
 
The online entry system uses a pre-defined list of classes,  but there is scope for deviation,  and for example we have received requests for Vago SH and SK2 etc,  there is a process to deal with these amongst the group of clubs and organisers. 
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:53am
As someone who put a not inconsiderable amount of time and effort into organising one of the events, it does annoy me that while the majority of the sailors who enter these winter events play fair, it seems to be the manufacturers who see fit to flout the rules. Yes, the merlin sails (from a few years ago) and the 800 sails may in actual fact turn out not to offer a performance advantage, but they ARE out of class, and the manufacturers knew that when they sent them to the events. This isn't the first manufacturer taking the pi"55" in the series either...

For the Dash we had this line in our SI's "Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with and hold a valid class certificate." Not sure about the BM.

We would have absolutely no issue with people trying stuff out at these events, even if that means the boats are out of class so long as everyone (inc organisers/race officer teams) knows up front and we can make sure that no one is disadvantaged. This was not the case at the BM with the 800's as far as I understand.

IMO, RS know who were using the development 800 sails so they should do the honourable thing and exert a little pressure on these guys to own up and retire from the race. It's not about me in 190th odd place moving up a couple, but sailing is fundamentally a self policing sport and we need to make sure this ethos is maintained. I am kicking myself as me and my crew commented on the 800's when they sailed past us.

Until anyone provides evidence of the 420's being out of class we can't assume anything, and then i'd suggest the same thing as above if it turns out they are. Is there anyone from the 420 class on here who could confirm or deny? There is usually a fairly healthy 420 contingent at the TT so perhaps we will be able to find out more then.


Edited by chrisg - 20 Jan 13 at 11:08am
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 11:39am
The 420 class rules are on ISAFs web site for all to see. There's absolutely nothing in the 420 rules which would allow those modifications. 
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by chrisg

.....

For the Dash we had this line in our SI's "Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with and hold a valid class certificate." Not sure about the BM.

.....


Clearly not the case for the BM, the NoR is still online
http://www.queenmary.org.uk/Data/Sites/1/nor/bmnor2013final.pdf

But no RS boat has a certificate anyway!
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 2:04pm
Lots of classes don't even have certificates any more, so not sure how that would work. But the premis behind it is sound.
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Posts: 852 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by sargesail

No it was always cheating and the SJ just exposed it.
 
No, Sailjuice made people on the internet care about it. I have yet to see a valid complaint from someone who actually sailed in any of the events in question.
 
By valid complaint I mean a properly lodged protest, not a kangaroo court on an internet forum.
 
You have a point, but read Chrisg's  well thought out last post - someone who was a competitor in the BM, AND organiser of one of the winter handicap events. His sentiments echo what others are saying here.
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Posts: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 13 at 8:45pm

People who put messages on forums need to be very careful about make generalised statements about classes accusing them of cheating. If they have a problem please discuss it with the boat in question and or protest.

There were 6, 420’s at the BM, one of them was my son sailing GBR 54415 and I can assure you they didn’t any wings on their rudder.

 I know all the other 420 sailors at the event and someone would have said what was going on.

 I suspect none had them on and that someone got a bit confused with the cold!
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 13 at 8:49pm
420 with winged rudder = like a badly tuned saxo with blue down lights

...or at least that's my thinking


Edited by getafix - 21 Jan 13 at 8:49pm
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 13 at 11:13pm
"need to be very careful"??
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