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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: 420 winged rudder
    Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by chrisg

.....

For the Dash we had this line in our SI's "Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with and hold a valid class certificate." Not sure about the BM.

.....


Clearly not the case for the BM, the NoR is still online
http://www.queenmary.org.uk/Data/Sites/1/nor/bmnor2013final.pdf

But no RS boat has a certificate anyway!
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Posts: 552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 11:39am
The 420 class rules are on ISAFs web site for all to see. There's absolutely nothing in the 420 rules which would allow those modifications. 
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:53am
As someone who put a not inconsiderable amount of time and effort into organising one of the events, it does annoy me that while the majority of the sailors who enter these winter events play fair, it seems to be the manufacturers who see fit to flout the rules. Yes, the merlin sails (from a few years ago) and the 800 sails may in actual fact turn out not to offer a performance advantage, but they ARE out of class, and the manufacturers knew that when they sent them to the events. This isn't the first manufacturer taking the pi"55" in the series either...

For the Dash we had this line in our SI's "Eligibility requirements for boats are that they comply with and hold a valid class certificate." Not sure about the BM.

We would have absolutely no issue with people trying stuff out at these events, even if that means the boats are out of class so long as everyone (inc organisers/race officer teams) knows up front and we can make sure that no one is disadvantaged. This was not the case at the BM with the 800's as far as I understand.

IMO, RS know who were using the development 800 sails so they should do the honourable thing and exert a little pressure on these guys to own up and retire from the race. It's not about me in 190th odd place moving up a couple, but sailing is fundamentally a self policing sport and we need to make sure this ethos is maintained. I am kicking myself as me and my crew commented on the 800's when they sailed past us.

Until anyone provides evidence of the 420's being out of class we can't assume anything, and then i'd suggest the same thing as above if it turns out they are. Is there anyone from the 420 class on here who could confirm or deny? There is usually a fairly healthy 420 contingent at the TT so perhaps we will be able to find out more then.


Edited by chrisg - 20 Jan 13 at 11:08am
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Posts: 349 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:31am
Originally posted by RS400atC


Other races have different wording such as ' dinghies with a recognised PY'.
QMSC couldn't really make it more open.
But on the entry form, there is a single little box 'boat class', and no invitation to detail deviation from class rules.
 
The online entry system uses a pre-defined list of classes,  but there is scope for deviation,  and for example we have received requests for Vago SH and SK2 etc,  there is a process to deal with these amongst the group of clubs and organisers. 
www.sailracer.org
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 10:14am
Originally posted by JimC

...

Originally posted by RS400atC

Maybe it would be good to have an agreement that 'slightly out of class' boats could race,

No need. All that is needed is to inform the Race Office beforehand, gain their agreement and let them issue a different handicap if they wish.


Indeed in the case of the BM, this is from the NoR

The race is open to monohull centreboard dinghies, including Thames A Raters which
are deemed to come within that definition, that have, or would have if none currently
allocated, a PY number equal to or lower than that of the International Topper.


Other races have different wording such as ' dinghies with a recognised PY'.
QMSC couldn't really make it more open.
But on the entry form, there is a single little box 'boat class', and no invitation to detail deviation from class rules.
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 8:54am
Originally posted by sargesail

The fact that no-one protested doesn't stop it being cheating....

You'd have to have seen this wings to make a protest....

You'd have to have known the Merlin Class Rules....

 
Doesnt the fact that noone else in either of the fleets in question have said anything about it tell you something? I cannot believe that altered 420 foils would have made it through any event without protest unless thay had permission from the class association to trial them
 
A quick google indicates N1 foils are producing a new design rudder for the 420, but I can't find a photo. Using my powers of deduction it's not an unreasonable assumption to make that these are the rudders in question and that we a six page topic arguing over whether a boat should be allowed to use a perfectly legal rudder blade.
 
Certainly a far more reasonable assumtion to make that that they have blatently and cynically cheated and deserve an international ban!


Edited by Paramedic - 20 Jan 13 at 8:54am
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Posts: 641 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 8:04am
Originally posted by robin34024

despite being in no way involved, if the class association had given a dispensation for the trial set,  then essentially, aren't they are class legal..?

The fact that you need a dispensation implies that they're not legal. If they complied with class rules, they wouldn't need a dispensation. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 7:38am
Originally posted by Paramedic

In fact the winter events used to be a hotbed of testing new kit out before the new season. New sails, differant shape foils, differant masts etc etc.

Agreed, but I don't remember people in any of the classes I've been involved in testing stuff that was out of class without informing the RO. Not officially measured yet but "intended-to-measure-and-if-it-doesn't-it-will-go-back-to-the-manufacturer" is quite a different kettle of fish. Yes, of course you used the winter events to tune up the new stuff ready for next season, but I don't recall this fascination for stuff that's out of class. Perhaps that's the boats I sail though.

Originally posted by RS400atC

Maybe it would be good to have an agreement that 'slightly out of class' boats could race,

No need. All that is needed is to inform the Race Office beforehand, gain their agreement and let them issue a different handicap if they wish.

Edited by JimC - 20 Jan 13 at 7:41am
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by sargesail

No it was always cheating and the SJ just exposed it.
 
No, Sailjuice made people on the internet care about it. I have yet to see a valid complaint from someone who actually sailed in any of the events in question.
 
By valid complaint I mean a properly lodged protest, not a kangaroo court on an internet forum.

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 13 at 12:19am
Maybe it would be good to have an agreement that 'slightly out of class' boats could race, not be eligible for the main prize, but have a placing recorded and a sub-category prize.
PY events should be open to any reasonable boat, which may be outside of any class association.
Yachts manage to race well enough when most of them have no class rules, just  a handicap.
Where would we be without people trialling new stuff?
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