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Dougaldog
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 05 Nov 10
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Posts: 356
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Topic: 420 winged rudder Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 3:45pm |
Wow, it is just as well the weather is S*** today, else I'd have wasted my time indoors when I could have been outside. But no, instead I spent the time looking through all the rule books trying to find the bits where it says that winter handicap events are 'fun' and that the RRS no longer apply. Nor, despite a very close search of the SIs, could I find it written anywhere that you could 'run what you brung' - in other words, class legal applies to other people. Now there are historical precedents for what happened that most of us can remember, when a front running Merlin Rocket used sails that were not legal (but only on a technicality) and ended up having to retire from a series that they'd (on paper and on the water) apparently won.
The worry now is that the events at QM could, if not handled well, turn out to be an even more problematic situation that will have far wider implications.
Firstly, the 420s. As well as sporting clearly illegal 'appendages', did the foils comform to the rules in all other ways, or were they profiled - which is a clear breach of the Class Rules. Now take this one stage further, what else on the boat contravened the Class Rules?
Were the sailors competing in these boats from one of the RYA Squads (let's face it, many of the 420 sailors are!) because then the question ought to be asked of the Squad leader if he intends condoning such actions. Is this really what the RYA is teaching our next generation of sailors?
The comments about the RS800 are even more worrying, as this string now contains supportive comments from an RS source that infers that their actions are okay. Now this surprised me, for this gives a strong message that RS as a supplier of 'one design' boats is now condoning sailors signing on with boats that are patently outside of the class rules. As one who hears a lot of protests, a defense of "it's okay, we're RS and that means we can do this" wouldn't get very far.
(it is worth remembering that RS are not just a major boat builder, but are the providers of dinghies with full international status; moreover, just recently they made a strong and credible bid to be a supplier of boats to the Olympics. That ought to place upon them a certain degree of responsibility but that seems to have been put to one side. So is it now official RS policy that 'do what thou whilt shall be the whole of the law"?)
He may upset a few, but GRF keeps hitting the nail right on the head when he says that "you couldn't make this up" because you couldn't. Between one of the UKs leading edge boat builders sending people off to sail in an event, with (if the previous strings on here are to be believed) official blessing and some 420 sailors (who made the foils....someone must have) it seems that the rules simply don't matter. What this says about the state of the sport today, well, I think we can all work that out but again, I refer you back to many of GRFs comments. When self interest overtakes the wider requiremensts of the sport, there can't be much left worth caring about!
D
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Dougal H
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Contender443
Really should get out more
Joined: 01 Oct 04
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 1211
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 3:56pm |
Now I have seen dispensation from CAs before and most of them say they can race in class events but not be eligible for a place or any of the prizes.
I saw it in the Contender when carbon masts were being tested and the sailmaker using it always retired from any races he used the new equipment in. That is the correct way to do it.
Now we could all just bin the class system and all have individual handicaps based on weight of boat, weight & height of sailor etc.
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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 4:28pm |
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Peaky
You usually have more luck asking for forgiveness than permission though. |
Even if that's true, the consequences of not getting forgiveness are far more serious. |
In this case, the consequences of not getting permission are not being allowed to sail, and the concequences of not getting forgiveness is having your result expunged. Assuming you didn't get into the choccies, the dsq doesn't really make a lot of difference, does it? You still know where you came. Do people not tell the organizers because they know that QM will give them a harsh handicap, like they do other boats with no PY? In a pursuit race, this can make it very disheartening. Which isn't to say I think sailing out of class boats is correct. But back to the OP - does anyone have any info on whether these winged rudders put the 420's in question ahead of the normally ruddered boats, and are there any pictures?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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gbr940
Posting king
Joined: 04 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 198
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 6:04pm |
Sorry...organisers spend huge amounts of time (usually unpaid) to organise these events and expect the competitors to read and comply to the NOR and also the SI's...what ever the CA says doesn't matter. People who take the p*ss and rock up thinking they can flaunt the class rules without advising correctly BEFORE a race even starts deserve to be banned from all future events, reported to the class association and to the RYA. Simples!!
Edited by gbr940 - 19 Jan 13 at 6:05pm
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RS400 GBR1321
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Paramedic
Really should get out more
Joined: 27 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 929
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 6:29pm |
Before the internet hounds are set loose yet again, does anybody actually know for a fact that they didn't have permission to use the infringeing equipment? Has anyone asked QMSC?
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themeaningoflife
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 06 May 11
Location: Essex/ Kent
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Posts: 212
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 6:37pm |
Originally posted by Stevie_GTI
The development 800 mainsail was used by 2 boats at the BM, one of which was beaten by a standard 800 mainsail in what was a very tight race between the three boats. Development is still ongoing on the new sail, a vote will follow on whether to introduce it or not. |
Stevie, is there any statement yet on the likely initial pricing of a new main if introduced?
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Cambridge University Lightweight Rowing Club
RS800 1128
kindly sponsored by RWO Marine
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 6662
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 7:45pm |
Originally posted by Rupert
In this case, the consequences of not getting permission are not being allowed to sail, and the concequences of not getting forgiveness is having your result expunged. |
Actually I'd say that the consequences of getting permission are going to be no worse than a handicap hit, whereas worst possible cause for not getting permission, should it found to be really blatant cheating (unlikely in most cases), is a ban from racing for a year or three.
But Paramedic's point is the vital one. As long as they got permission that's just fine.
Edited by JimC - 19 Jan 13 at 7:54pm
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 7:52pm |
Originally posted by Dougaldog
Wow, it is just as well the weather is S*** today, else I'd have wasted my time indoors when I could have been outside. But no, instead I spent the time looking through all the rule books trying to find the bits where it says that winter handicap events are 'fun' and that the RRS no longer apply. Nor, despite a very close search of the SIs, could I find it written anywhere that you could 'run what you brung' - in other words, class legal applies to other people...... D |
My understanding of 'run wot you brung' is that it implies travelling to the event in/on the vehicle you compete in, which would add something to sailing events.... However, these spats over class rules are not new, maybe the event organisers should have a policy and make it clear in the NoR. It's good to see people trying things out, it's good to showcase ideas to other classes, and part of the popularity of these events is about racing against whatever turns up. Perhaps a pusuit race is not ideal, because you can't race the new and old 800 mains head to head if the new one is given a notional PY penalty. If experimental deviations are not welcome at these events, then there is maybe a market for a few events where they are? But let's have it all out in the open.
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 7:59pm |
Originally posted by RS400atC
However, these spats over class rules are not new, maybe the event organisers should have a policy and make it clear in the NoR. |
I was just wondering that, but then again I was thinking that its probably not really a good idea to have stuff in the NOR or SIs that simply duplicates the RRS, and SIs are not allowed to change class rules...
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08
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Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 8:02pm |
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Rupert
In this case, the consequences of not getting permission are not being allowed to sail, and the concequences of not getting forgiveness is having your result expunged. |
Actually I'd say that the consequences of getting permission are going to be no worse than a handicap hit, whereas worst possible cause for not getting permission, should it found to be really blatant cheating (unlikely in most cases), is a ban from racing for a year or three. |
Why would entering as a boat that complies to a known set of rules then sticking a sail on it that's intended to be faster not be really blatant cheating? Although AFAIK, the letter of the RS class rules is you can use anything that RS supplies you as a mainsail.
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