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The new Laser b**tard
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Cameron Winton View Drop Down
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Joined: 08 Nov 11
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cameron Winton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The new Laser b**tard
    Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 7:14pm
Having just returned to sailing with a laser, I am looking towards opens in the next few years and what is putting me off is the £350 for a legal sail. My rooster is no better or worse than a laser one but way cheaper. Making the most accessible more accessible would be the change I would make
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 12:42am

4000 boats is not a lot world wide, when you take out the ones used in regattas and ones owned by national sailing federations.

But the ones used in regattas and NAs are still out there on the water in use and must be counted. I know lots of people who have bought ex-worlds boats who would have bought new boats in the normal way if the ex-worlds boats were not available. 

The latest class report is 2010, probably because of the class turmoil, and speaks of 2000 boats sold that year and about 3,400 pa for the previous 5 years.

But even 2000 boats is a HUGE amount worldwide. Compare that to the OK (22 boats in 2011), 29er (134 boats), Byte (20 boats in 2011), MPS (19 in 2011), Contender (24 in 2011), Moth (200 in 2011 and benefiting from the marketing by Bladerider which was part of its 2-3 million $ loss). And look at the number of class members - 1600 in the UK in 2010 compared to say 83 in the Contenders, 209 in the MPS (4 times as many as any other country).

What we have here is a class that is arguably an order of magnitude, OR MORE, more successful than anything that is close to it. 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 12:49am
Originally posted by tick

I am not entirely sure of my facts here but did Laser not have a good start over other "modern" boats. Did not Laser come in with a bang and a major manufacturer to support it? It must have been a far cry when compared with someone knocking out hulls in an old chicken shed and looking for market share. Once established.....


No the Laser did NOT have a major manufacturer to support it. The original concept was hoping for support from Coleman but that did not come off and therefore Kirby, Bruce and Fogh transformed the boat from the original "beach toy" concept to a more performance-oriented one. They did this because without Coleman backing they could not compete with the might of the Sunfish in the US beach toy market. 

Ian Bruce was basically working from a chicken shed and hoping to sell (IIRC) 500 boats in total when he re-started the project after Coleman walked away.

The Laser was then revved up and launched by a very small organisation. After its success, the same market was attacked by people like AMF Alcort ( an enormous multi-national building things like high-tech armaments and cars) and Chrysler, which was (IIRC) at the time a major part of the world's biggest company.

So not only was the Laser NOT supported by a major manufacturer, but it basically came from a chicken shed and yet actually succeeded in winning the battle AGAINST manufacturers incomparably larger than anyone involved in the market today.

Furthermore, at least some boats (particularly the Banshee) were very similar in speed to the Laser.

This info comes from my own interviews and correspondence with Bruce, Kirby and Fogh and examination of old reports.


 


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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 1:00am
Originally posted by Chris 249


4000 boats is not a lot world wide, when you take out the ones used in regattas and ones owned by national sailing federations.

But the ones used in regattas and NAs are still out there on the water in use and must be counted. I know lots of people who have bought ex-worlds boats who would have bought new boats in the normal way if the ex-worlds boats were not available. 

The latest class report is 2010, probably because of the class turmoil, and speaks of 2000 boats sold that year and about 3,400 pa for the previous 5 years.

But even 2000 boats is a HUGE amount worldwide. Compare that to the OK (22 boats in 2011), 29er (134 boats), Byte (20 boats in 2011), MPS (19 in 2011), Contender (24 in 2011), Moth (200 in 2011 and benefiting from the marketing by Bladerider which was part of its 2-3 million $ loss). And look at the number of class members - 1600 in the UK in 2010 compared to say 83 in the Contenders, 209 in the MPS (4 times as many as any other country).

What we have here is a class that is arguably an order of magnitude, OR MORE, more successful than anything that is close to it. 
 
Which makes the (apparent) current issues with supply, service and parts prices all the more frustrating, as development costs should have been covered years ago and economies of scale should allow the builders to undercut virtually everything else in the market.
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tick View Drop Down
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 7:06am
That is very interesting Chris but in light of what you say it is a pity that they did not cure the mainsheet/transom problem while still chasing chickens!
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 10:48am
 bruce kirby has said on more than one occasion that he regrets not making it true centre sheeted.
but back then it would have added  to the cost and by the time he decided the boat needed it, so many had been sold, it was to late to change, with out changing the one design ethos.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 11:18am
Having the mainsheet at the transom, not a couple if inches in, would have been enough.

However, I'm amazed how many people on here (even owners) think the only reason the Laser is a success any more is because of the number already out there, and that the boat itself is horrible. I'm no Laser sailor, but even I think that it is a lovely boat to take out for a sail, and that any tweaks would be simply ironing out a few wrinkles in an otherwise nice package.

The only problem I can see is that in pursuit of winning, people have taken it beyond what it was designed to do.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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tick View Drop Down
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 11:32am
Very sensible Rupert. The trouble with this forum is that we wind each other up or gather in gangs. I don't really care what people sail or drive or what their sexual orientation is but if we start talking about it then opinions are expressed and amplified. 
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Rupert

Having the mainsheet at the transom, not a couple if inches in, would have been enough.

However, I'm amazed how many people on here (even owners) think the only reason the Laser is a success any more is because of the number already out there, and that the boat itself is horrible. I'm no Laser sailor, but even I think that it is a lovely boat to take out for a sail, and that any tweaks would be simply ironing out a few wrinkles in an otherwise nice package.

The only problem I can see is that in pursuit of winning, people have taken it beyond what it was designed to do.


+ 1

spot on. i would not have sailed one for 15 years if it was a bad boat. Smile
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 13 at 12:02pm
"The only problem I can see is that in pursuit of winning, people have taken it beyond what it was designed to do."
+2 Exactly.
Sailed one out of a tricksy harbour mouth to open sea for several seasons and learnt lots about sympathetic boat handling and balance which stood me in excellent stead when I decided to get into more powerful two man trapeze boats. 
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