Ex-laser 2000, now '2000'

   I recently went up to Laser to collect one of the last of their 2k's, which is to be a WSC club boat.  I put it to the guy we met that I had heard rumours that Rooster were going to take over production, which he hotly denied, quite rightly as it turns out, but he gave the impression that the 2k was with Laser for life. That's business, I suppose.
He did concede however,  that they had only sold one 2k last year to anyone other than a club or institution, and I think I can guess one major reason.

I had heard the Rooster rumour at a 2k open, when the hot topic was the the buoyancy, or rather excess of it. "Rooster will completely revise the buoyancy to reduce inversion" was the cry (hope). And that is a big deal.

When the 2k came out, I pushed it in the club mag. as being just the thing for forming the basis of a new club class, and that is indeed is what it has become.  It seemed to be a good uopdate on the GP14 niche - easy to sail, stable yet providing a satisfying sail compared to the plastic fantastics like the RS Vision (which we had a club-owned boats.

Since then, however, I have had to revise my view. I have seen too many very experienced sailors, instructors and all, struggle to right them from inverted, especially if they weren't lardy - the boat simply has far too much buoyancy, thus inverts immediately and, unless you are very quick or heavy, unstoppably. As a result, people in the club are now reluctant to recommend them to novices,  which is a great shame since the basic design is very novice-friendly - so long as they never capsize!

The problem is, as ever, that the existing convenient arrangement of moulded-in side benches in the deck moulding defines too great a volume of buoyancy.  The solution imho would be to remove the side benches from the deck moulding to make the side tanks very slim with the double bottom extending the full width of the hull, then add the side benches as separate parts à la Wayfarer; the ability to sit 'in' the boat is good in what would otherwise be a very wide gap from side deck to side deck, and is appreciated by novices and myself at least alike. Would up the cost, however, but in my view essentially.

Question is, will LDC take this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to bring the boat up to scratch?  Their boat needn't be quicker, just much less fear-inducing on a windy day. Nobody likes to go afloat wondering if they will have a tricky capsize, and capsizing can happen to the best of us.

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Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Ex-laser 2000, now '2000' Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 2:33pm
	I recently went up to Laser to collect one of the last of their 2k's, which is to be a WSC club boat. I put it to the guy we met that I had heard rumours that Rooster were going to take over production, which he hotly denied, quite rightly as it turns out, but he gave the impression that the 2k was with Laser for life. That's business, I suppose. He did concede however, that they had only sold one 2k last year to anyone other than a club or institution, and I think I can guess one major reason. I had heard the Rooster rumour at a 2k open, when the hot topic was the the buoyancy, or rather excess of it. "Rooster will completely revise the buoyancy to reduce inversion" was the cry (hope). And that is a big deal. When the 2k came out, I pushed it in the club mag. as being just the thing for forming the basis of a new club class, and that is indeed is what it has become. It seemed to be a good uopdate on the GP14 niche - easy to sail, stable yet providing a satisfying sail compared to the plastic fantastics like the RS Vision (which we had a club-owned boats. Since then, however, I have had to revise my view. I have seen too many very experienced sailors, instructors and all, struggle to right them from inverted, especially if they weren't lardy - the boat simply has far too much buoyancy, thus inverts immediately and, unless you are very quick or heavy, unstoppably. As a result, people in the club are now reluctant to recommend them to novices, which is a great shame since the basic design is very novice-friendly - so long as they never capsize! The problem is, as ever, that the existing convenient arrangement of moulded-in side benches in the deck moulding defines too great a volume of buoyancy. The solution imho would be to remove the side benches from the deck moulding to make the side tanks very slim with the double bottom extending the full width of the hull, then add the side benches as separate parts à la Wayfarer; the ability to sit 'in' the boat is good in what would otherwise be a very wide gap from side deck to side deck, and is appreciated by novices and myself at least alike. Would up the cost, however, but in my view essentially. Question is, will LDC take this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to bring the boat up to scratch? Their boat needn't be quicker, just much less fear-inducing on a windy day. Nobody likes to go afloat wondering if they will have a tricky capsize, and capsizing can happen to the best of us.
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

gbr940 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Posting king Joined: 04 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 198	Post Options Post Reply Quote gbr940 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 3:15pm
	Having been brought up racing on the Medway, it was a known fact that if you capsize and you're not quick to the board you WILL invert if you don't have an additional buoyancy bag type thing attached...surely that would aid the L2k novices?
	RS400 GBR1321

robin34024 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 03 Jan 12 Location: Lincoln Online Status: Offline Posts: 116	Post Options Post Reply Quote robin34024 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 3:28pm
	IMO, people just dont like sailing with a big bouyancy bag hanging off the top of the mast though. when i was learning to sail, i would refuse to go out with a milk bottle on the top of my topper mast.

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 3:37pm
	I don't find inversion to be a general problem on the Medway, and I have capsized a lot of different classes there over the years! My V3k doesn't, for example, nor do Mk2 Wayfarers or many of the older classes like Ents and Fireflies unless they have been 'updated' (and cost-engineered) with a one-piece deck-side-tank moulding (& not always then, of course, if the boat is narrow enough). A lot of our L2k's do use masthead buoyancy, but it doesn't always work. Plus if it does prevent inversion the boat then floats very high on its side due to the excess buoyancy, meaning it is hard to get on the board, and of course there is a lot of windage to propel the boat downwind. I've seen quite a number of masthead bags at opens too. Surely that is a real indictment of a design when it goes that far? I have not seen that in other classes, at least not so widespread. Edited by Medway Maniac - 13 Jan 13 at 3:38pm
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

SoggyBadger Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 26 Oct 10 Location: The Wild Wood Online Status: Offline Posts: 552	Post Options Post Reply Quote SoggyBadger Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 3:47pm
	It's not just the amount of buoyancy it's where that buoyancy is positioned that causes problems. These double-floored self-draining boats all seem to have problems there, even older designs which have been "updated". The problem is that when the boat is on its side the centre of gravity can be further from the keel than the centre of buoyancy. Add that to windage on the hull and you've got a very significant force trying to invert the boat.
	Best wishes from deep in the woods SB

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 4:02pm
	Yes, ideally you put a lot of buoyancy high up as well - in bow and stern tanks, but stern tanks are way out of fashion at the moment, not least, I suppose because of building/cost complications if you want to drain out though tubes to the transom, although the L2k at least has these already. There is no doubt in my mind that a double bottom is a desirable thing overall, but it needs to be kept as shallow as possible. A high floor provides a less stable feel to the boat, and encloses too much buoyancy. But a low double-bottom such as is found on the latest Wayfarers, which is shallow and uses bailers in wells, works well in my experience. Trouble is, the water doesn't even reach the double bottom in an L2k when the boat is on its side - it floats too high for that on its side-tanks.
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

kingdacks Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 04 Oct 11 Location: Poole Online Status: Offline Posts: 148	Post Options Post Reply Quote kingdacks Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 4:06pm
	I rember talking to someone within the class, or it may have been LPE about the problems with it inverting and basically saying it would be nearly impossible for two teenagers around 60kg. Also have RS really done the right thing, have they not taken on a bit of a white elephant. if they only sold one boat in a whole year at LPE, it wouldn't have been worth purchasing or updating the moulds for the boat. Also as I say again it doesnt really fit in the the rs brand, in less its branded in there all purpose boats. Edited by kingdacks - 13 Jan 13 at 4:07pm

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 4:44pm
	I think if they sort the buoyancy problem they could be onto a winner. It is a nice boat to sail all the while it's right way up, and racing can be close and exciting. Numbers in the club shot up until people started to realise that they couldn't in all conscience recommend it to a novice who might get into trouble. And yes crew weight is definitely a factor in righting the boat, which means that there is currently a mis-match between the weight required to right the boat (lardy) and the ideal racing weight (on the lighter side - i.e. ideal for couples, parent/teenagers etc,)
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 4:44pm
	Read it again - one boat which was not to a sailing school or institution....and even then they sold more after that comment....problem was they didn't have any to sell. It's no white elephant. I'll get round to why they might want it later....but 2321 sails in 14 years might have soething to do with it...

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jan 13 at 4:46pm
	Don't know about know about 'didn't have any to sell' . The club got theirs off the shelf with no waiting.
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class