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marke View Drop Down
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Posts: 211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Quick PY Question
    Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:21pm
Thanks Chris

Yep I'm one of those faceless guys with Chris who conspire to "manipulate the PN's behind closed doors due to vested interests" - however something seems to have gone wrong with the admin system as I haven't received the brown envelope yet.

Just to reiterate some of what Chris mentioned.  The RYA should be congratulated for attempting to resolve the known issues with the PY system when faced with a generally hostile reaction whenever changes are made - it must have been VERY tempting to let things lie.

The work on the PYS is not only fixing the issue of getting 'real' data, it is also giving us a growing database where we can for the first time do real experimental analysis on a large database of performance measurements.  It is not going to happen overnight - we all have day jobs - but I can already see some interesting things in the data.

It would be interesting to hear more experiences of trying to get local adjustments made to PYs at your club.  The clubs I know who have made the change seem to be happy with the outcome and all seem to be active and thriving clubs.  Maybe there are some experiences to share to encourage those who are scared to test the water.  "Class XYZ is a bandit and needs to have its PY slashed" is generally not a recommended way to start the discussion - and its almost always not true.

Mark




Edited by marke - 10 Jan 13 at 10:25pm
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:34pm
Bootscooter + others, thanks for the kind words. Glad some people find the PYAGs work useful.

The Great Lakes handicaps are set by a group of people from the lakes involved in the Sailjuice series overseen and brought together by Andrew Craig from Queen Mary. They are not amalgamated to the RYA PYAG, although in my capacity as organiser of the Draycote Dash I do happen to be on that group as well. 

I know that there are a few clubs who are saying they find the Great Lakes numbers interesting and are considering using them for club racing or their own handicap opens. Some aren't even lake based clubs......

As for being an accurate starting point, I guess it depends what you want to get out of it. It should be remembered that the Great Lakes numbers are trying to achieve something slightly different to the national numbers. It is openly acknowledged that the Great Lakes numbers are trying to handicap to the potential of the class, when sailed by the best guys.

If you are seeing week in week out that one particular class is being advantaged at your club then you should look at approaching your sail committee to ask them to consider changing numbers. 

Whether the great lakes numbers are more "accurate" is a bit of a mute point. I don't regard them as being any more accurate than the national numbers as they are based on a far smaller sample, but arguably that sample of sailors may have closer CSF's.

What it is possible to do now more easily than ever is score a series using a product like sailwave with dual handicaps. So you can still publish your club results using national numbers if thats what is described in your SI's but also publish a mirrored set based on say the Great Lakes numbers, or even your suggested club numbers nurtured from your club returns PYS website to see if they make much difference and help achieve what you want. 

Hope that helps, sorry i couldn't really give a yes or no answer.

Chris


Edited by chrisg - 10 Jan 13 at 10:38pm
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:37pm
Wow, Chris what a great post.  I for one think that the PY scheme has moved on leaps and bounds in recent years.  The Phantom is the best example of this.  So please keep up the good work, its not something i could do (i am to busy spouting bollox on a forum) But please, please, please keep up the good work because in my opinion things are starting to get a whole lot better.

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:39pm
Well what were the chances of that?

Gold, a 300 sailor who is also in a position to influence the system.

So first let me thank you and your team for what you are doing, which of course it would be crass not to even though you are doing it all wrong for a few reasons from my perspective.

First and please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to bet that your data is drawn from an extremely inland water bias.
Second, permitting the 'anarchy' that happens at present with organisations like the sail juice mob, (these were the vested interest I was thinking of at the time) tilting the slope in the direction of the Laser presumably in the expectation of greater numbers for their event, which in turn prejudices the rest of the country, because..

Third none of the clubs that I have experience of would have either the nerve or the wherewithall to alter the system from the stock PY list, most coastal clubs have other issues, launch recovery for instance, takes long enough and cn have safety complications, so having the manpower to do anything other than work out the results straight is a luxury they don't enjoy. It would also just be to much hassle and stress as I'm sure you already experience in trying to do what you do.

So, the solution is a smaller controlled sample, with a group of invited sailors over a couple of weekends, round robin style, purely to 'trial' your results prior to release, using your 300 as the mid point so the bottom and top of your range don't become skewed by the more commercial activities of the great lakes lot.

Then the sort of anomalies I mentioned earlier don't occur, the Phantom doesn't get too much negative focus over the Blaze for example. An event or two would self fund, you'd get more help if something more 'public' was known to be occurring as it is half of us have no idea how it all works (thanks for explaining it better here I shall try and pay a bit more attention myself)and probably don't really care once we're off the water.

Not that anything I might think should count, being a bit of an outsider, but it's meant to be constructive so please don't take offence even though you are doing it all wrong
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Both very different boats though arnt they!  A wooden Phantom would get spanked by a 300, but a modern Phantom is lighter with more sail area!  No wonder its pretty much as fast.
 
Are they different boats? Same shape, same sail area as far as I know, it's just the construction that is different.
 
According to RS spec sheets the 300 is lighter than a Phantom (58kg vs 61kg), has more sail area on the B rig (10m2 vs 9.75m2) and has more RM (2m beam vs 1.65m), so you might expect a bigger difference between a 300 and a modern Phantom than between a modern Phantom and an old one.

It was my understanding that it was nearly impossible to build older phantoms down to weight, this couple with the fact that with FRP construction weight distribution can be better controlled, Double flooring so no water is carried, carbon rigs and stiffer construction makes it very different.

The 300 B rig is just uner 10m2 and the weight you are quoting is just hull weight (sailing weight 75kg).  The Phantom is (according to Vandercraft website) is 10.5m2 and 61kg fitted out.

Thats where i got my comparision from.  As Dan says the 300 may have more beam but comes at the cost of several other things, which the Phantom does not suffer from.. hence very different boats

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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:51pm
I just want to echo Ruscoes sentiments, that I too feel that the changes your group have made (including trying to educate the masses, and de-mistifying the process) have had a very positive impact on the handicap racing I've witnessed.
 
Grahame/Greame (whatever..), I don't think the Great Lakes numbers were manipulated to make specific Classes more appealing, but were set to "match" the BEST sailors of each class, rather than the AVERAGE of the results, which I think is how the RYA system is set. *stands by to be corrected*
The idea of this is to ensure that a top sailor of any fleet stand a chance of winning the pot, as opposed to what can happen with the RYA numbers is a good sailor in a fleet of duffers can have a massive benifit.
 
Some or all of the above may be complete bolleaux.... can somebody confirm please?
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:53pm
Graham,

I'd have to check the split of inland to tidal returns, but its probably more even than you think.

The national returns won't be influenced by anything the Great Lakes do. Well that's not quite true, in that I know all the Great Lakes clubs use the online system so the Sailjuice races, with the exception of the Bloody Mary (as its a pursuit), will be uploaded to the national system. However, the PYAG will use the suggested handicaps for each class from those races COMBINED with the suggested handicaps from all other races for each class from all other clubs. So their results will be a lot smaller sample within the overall national numbers

Further, the way the online system works it does not matter what handicap the club is using, the website calculates what the number for each class should be in any one race rated against, in simple terms, the average finishing time for that race. It is a bit more complicated than that but basically that's how it works.

So while the PYAG do see what numbers clubs are using currently its the suggested number we will be more interested in.

Chris


Edited by chrisg - 10 Jan 13 at 11:01pm
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

I just want to echo Ruscoes sentiments, that I too feel that the changes your group have made (including trying to educate the masses, and de-mistifying the process) have had a very positive impact on the handicap racing I've witnessed.
 
Grahame/Greame (whatever..), I don't think the Great Lakes numbers were manipulated to make specific Classes more appealing, but were set to "match" the BEST sailors of each class, rather than the AVERAGE of the results, which I think is how the RYA system is set. *stands by to be corrected*
The idea of this is to ensure that a top sailor of any fleet stand a chance of winning the pot, as opposed to what can happen with the RYA numbers is a good sailor in a fleet of duffers can have a massive benifit.
 
Some or all of the above may be complete bolleaux.... can somebody confirm please?

Pretty much correct, yes.
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:55pm
Chrisg, thanks for note. Must have taken a fare chunk of your time!
 
As you can see from my posts I enjoy PY racing, so that should show you that it is working. And that is in a boat that has been heavily penalised over the last few years.
 
Obviously what we don't know is how much further it will fall, which along with the old shouts of bandit boat (for the Phantom in this case) it probably winds up the people who are really feeling the PY drop already and induces a bit of paranoia. Personally and as stated before, I don't suffer from that because I just can't see a Phantom ever getting rated as fast as a 300, so it suggests we are either there are nearly there (given my PY is already lower than the RYA PY). The sea sailors may have a different view and I'm sympathetic to that (cause I know I couldn't hike a Phantom for a full upwind leg on the sea), but then they just have to lobby their club for a different number.
 
 
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 10:59pm
So genuine question Chris/Mark - how does a club go about convincing its members to locally adjust?

Any 'good practice' tips? Or case studies of measured improvement (number of entries up being a good criteria I guess)

I don't doubt it would make the racing closer (if applied to any class with a minimum micro fleet of say, 3) But I just don't think the 'Human Side' will accept it in many places - even if doing so ironed out local anomalies.

Another observation- you guys are doing a great job of opening up the process, highlighting the flaws, extolling the virtues etc; however has anyone actually considered the 'faceless chamber behind closed doors' might actually be better for the average punter?

Is there the same level of (apparent) dissatisfaction from the closed shop of the IRC and the RORC? You certainly don't seem to hear it moaned about as often?

Graeme...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC_(sailing)

Edited by pondmonkey - 10 Jan 13 at 11:01pm
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