Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Quick PY Question |
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 8:51pm |
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It's not bad, it's a really great part of the dinghy racing scene, it inspires more fun and is an essential ingredient, it just needs managing better than it currently is, with just a little tweaking it won't be perfect, but it would be a more even playing field. You don't have to pay it any attention if you don't want to, in fact the only time I do pay it any attention is when absurdities occur and you just wonder how they could ever have happened. But it's better to have it than not, half the reason sailboard racing never prospered was the lack of it, we could never make it stick. |
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rb_stretch ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742 |
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Well I have to say that nearly all my racing is PY racing. When you learn what conditions suit your boat you start to know when you are sailing well, irrespective of the PY issues. It's just a reference point.
For example in a drifter I will never beat a Solo, sometimes they even beat on the water. That's fine cause I know that. However I would be disappointed if I couldn't beat a Solo in force 2/3, the Phantom sweet spot. And I should add that I really enjoy racing against a 300. It's PY is close enough that we are often in shouting distance of each other (small reservoir).
Edited by rb_stretch - 10 Jan 13 at 9:03pm |
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pondmonkey ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202 |
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Well why not get in touch with the PY Group at the RYA- lend your time and support? I actually think it's as good as a could get from a management perspective- the software, RYA attitude, expert involvement etc; but the system fails at club level- lack of returns, most clubs don't use it properly anyway, general distain and suspicion if they do etc. (And ultimately it can fail at individual level too- giving someone a reason why their boat is unfairly handicapped can cover a plethora of sh*t tacks and bad calls- some sailors would openly admit that too!) The odd thing is, when/if you finally no longer care for PY racing and whether the RYA cut it overnight, you actually acknowledge some of the nicer things it brings to the table- the opportunity to train locally for your circuit for example. Or and to participate in festivals of sailing and summer regattas; that's cool- very 'cool' this weekend!!! but as for doing it week in, week out as the only form of racing on offer... sod that, it's not real racing no matter how much tweaking, moaning, analysing, interpreting, adjusting and sail wave uploading anyone may care to throw at it, not in my opinion anyway. Edited by pondmonkey - 10 Jan 13 at 9:21pm |
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Daniel Holman ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 17 Nov 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 997 |
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300 rig is a really big diam mast but very bendy so the sail needs Muchos vang to set. Fine in medium winds, horrible in light because you can't have it reasonably flat and with any twist, not great for breeze either for similar reasons.
No place for a gnav on a boat where a crew isn't working in that area. Not a big fan of the upwards pointing boom. |
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getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
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+1, so much time and space is taken up here and in SC bars debating the rights and wrongs, bandits and dogs of the PY scheme, in reality it's really only as good or bad as you dwell on it IMO, there is fun to be had going sailing in mixed fleets and often, some challenges that I've found very enjoyable in the past and probably will in future; for example there is usually a wind band when you'd back yourself to do well and you sail and concentrate harder then than you do other times
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chrisg ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Mar 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 893 |
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Ah it must be this time of year again.... I haven't posted on here for a while due to some of the cr4p that gets spouted but I guess this thread has my name all over it.... So, at the risk of sticking my head above the parapet, Graham, I am one of the people who in your eyes "manipulate the PN's behind closed doors due to vested interests". I am not a pro sail loft jockey, nor do I work in the boating industry and do not get paid in any way by the RYA. I am a middle of the fleet club racer. I'm not even a member of any class association! After a fairly flippant email one day in the dim and distant past asking how I could get involved, I have become current chair of the PYAG (Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group) who are the bunch of VOLUNTEERS who use our precious work annual leave to take time out to meet with the guys from the RYA technical department to discuss all things PY. Yes, much of our meeting time is taken with setting numbers for the coming season, but in the last few years we have also made some big inroads into dealing with the well documented flaws in the system. We all know that the system isn't perfect: old boats suffer, different locations (inland to tidal) affect the number and that some classes could really do with two numbers if not more depending on wind speed. And above all else, CSF (crew skill factor) arguably affects a PN more greatly than anything else. I'm pretty sure people can add even more of their own flaws to that list as well. Looking at how the system has improved over the last few years, as recently as 4 to 5 years ago, 100% of the returns were done on an archaic form, posted to all clubs over the winter. At best club race officers would return the form showing the numbers they thought classes should be using at their club from calculations they had made using the YR2 system. These clubs were very, very much in their minority. Other club returns showed proposed numbers based on guesswork. These were also in their minority. The majority of returns were made up of clubs who had made no effort in working out what was going on and just sent the form back saying that the current numbers were satisfactory. So if 100 clubs returned saying the laser number was correct and should have been 1070 and one returned saying 1071 was correct for their club, the number stayed at 1070. At the same time as relying on the old return forms, previous PYAG's would only change primary numbers by a max of 1 point in any given year, secondary numbers moved but only by a couple of points max, and recorded numbers could move but again only by a max of 3 points. I have only been on the group for the last 4 years and there are others who have been on longer who may know the reasoning so not able to say 100% why that approach was taken but I guess among other things they were after stability - which I guess they achieved, while inadvertently affording some classes bandit status by not being able to keep up with changes to hulls/rigs. I'm not saying the current system will necessarily be able to keep up with the true development classes but i'd like to think we would be a lot closer, more quickly. The current PYAG still relies on data from clubs, so if the clubs tell us the numbers are working, well they must be... Over the last few years the RYA tech. dept have been rolling out the electronic upload system. More and more of the returns for each club are now taken directly from actual race results via electronic upload, be that via Sailwave, HAL or direct import. So as you can see from the PN lists of the past few years, we are now seeing the start of classes moving more quickly where historically they perhaps would not have before. Last season the PYAG discarded the Primary, Secondary and Recorded designations and are now more open about the amount of data that each PN is based upon (the new and arguably the biggest change in this years numbers). I hope people appreciated that change and find it useful. What I hope the new PYAG's are achieving (albeit slowly) are more realistic numbers that keep up with changing times. Take the phantom. We have reduced the PN by the amount we have because the returns are telling us that that is what is needed. I hope I can speak on behalf of the rest of the PYAG and say that we are now confident to make bold moves if required. The current PN's are based on returns for the last 3 years so as you can see, it has taken a while for the old, uncalculated numbers to be gradually phased out and the more fluid numbers to move to where they need to be. We have various things we would like to achieve for the PY system in the future and it should be known that ongoing improvements are in progress and more are in the pipeline, but like all these things, they take time. They are being worked on. We could suggest many different alternatives to our PY system, including a measurement based handicap, but remember that SCHRS for cats and the cruiser rating system are generally comparing more like for like boats (give or take). PY tries to cater for such differing dinghies from Oppies to foiling moths through keelboats such as fifteens. Some plane early, some don't at all. Others sail displacement only. Add cats and cruisers and its a wide playing field. We do know it isnt perfect. Trying to figure out how to implement wind strength numbers is potentially flawed too. Who decides what wind strength it is, what happens if the wind speed changes dramatically during a race etc etc What should be happening and clearly isn't (even from my own experience at my home club) is that clubs should not be afraid to alter PN's for classes or even boats where they see fit to provide fairer racing for all. If your club isn't adjusting put pressure on them to do so. It is a thankless task being a handicap officer for a sailing club as you can be damned if you do and damned if you don't so go easy on these guys. The PYAG also know this and while we have a few ideas how we can help clubs, we need everyone to start pressuring their clubs to move numbers where justified. It should be in the mindset that the published national PN's are a baseline to work from, not set in stone. If lasers always clean up at your club and its not purely through CSF then move the number. If you're club isn't using the electronic upload system find out why and see if you can convince them to start. One of the things we are looking at is to be able to combine your results with clubs sailing similar classes on similar waters to try to remove any CSF from your own club results where you may only have one or two boats of any class. However, I think the idea is that clubs may only be able to access this facility if they are making up to date returns. IMO our country's dinghy rating system is in a good state compared to others, and I would like to think it is in good hands. There is no conspiracy theory, just a group of like minded people actively trying to help improve the sport they love. Most of the PYAG are on this forum, so hopefully they can say hi so you all know who they are. If you have specific questions about the system feel free to pm me and I will try to answer. And last but not least, yes to keep things open, I sail an RS300 (to a medicore standard it has to be said) and think the current number is about right...... See you all at the BM. Handicap racing is alive and well it seems!
Edited by chrisg - 10 Jan 13 at 9:59pm |
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getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
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Fab, good job on what is often, a thankless task, but helps us all get an enjoyable race or three in, more often than not
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pondmonkey ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202 |
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Good post Chris!
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gbr940 ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 198 |
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spot on post...thanks Chris
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RS400 GBR1321
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Bootscooter ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1094 |
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ChrisG -
Thanks for posting on here and please accept huge gratitude from the vast majority of Handicap Fleet dinghy sailors. Can I ask, did your Committee have any input into the Great Lakes handicap numbers, and do you think that perhaps these figures would provide a more accurate "starting point" for many inland Clubs (I'm thinking, in my case, of my home Club at Oxford)?
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