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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 10 Jan 13 at 3:36pm |
I know there are a bunch of ex RS 300 suicide jockeys on here, and I'm just doing a bit of personal PY history and trying to monitor trends amongst the Bandits, I note the 300 is pretty stable at 1000 so have two questions.
1) Was that initially given on the A rig but pretty much everyone uses the B, but the handicap works so it got left with just the one handicap. 2)I guess because of the nature of the beast it's 'sweet spot' would be the lighter end of the wind spectrum where 'they' didn't keep falling off the toilet so to speak. so it would be fare to say the handicap is on the money? |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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To the best of my knowledge it only ever had the one handicap. The hope was that the two rigs would end up near enough the same performance as lighter sailors had to have the small rig and heavier ones the large rig. Certainly the differences between the two rigs are tiny compared to the differences between sailors...
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pondmonkey ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202 |
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bang on it to be honest- once you're vaguely up to speed with the boat handling, then in the right hands and right conditions it's a weapon, earned by right of passage and hardwork, so not in bandit territory. A better sailed one beat me in my 100 around the cans of a v. small lake most of the time, however I beat a lesser sailed 300 rtc... so pretty much as you'd expect.
It's got good acceleration, but not a massive top end, so it doesn't horizon job- it can only massive leads from being very well sailed. That said in light to moderate winds I could hold a similar level of sailor in my Phantom, it was only when they got a bit more powered up that I got stuffed and spat out the back. I never sailed one in waves, but the guys who came back from the big sea events swore by them.
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rb_stretch ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742 |
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No idea on the first question, but on the second question when sailing against a 300 with a Phantom I find the 300 is faster in the very light stuff and then again in the strong stuff. In between, when a Phantom is properly powered up, but not too overpowered, it can almost match a 300 around the course by going slightly faster upwind and a bit slower downwind.
I think the 300 is fast in the very light because of the low wetted surface area and in the strong stuff it is very easily driven with good righting moment which makes it v. fast (albeit can be a handful). The more reaching that is involved the better the 300 seems to do. Would be interesting to hear what the 300 sailors think.
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maxibuddah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
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The 300 never seemed to point as high as other single handers or Scorpions, but then that might have been me. Felt quicker upwind than a Phantom but I might be wrong as never compared them directly. Where it really excelled was close reaching, very very quick. Also very quick in puffy inland conditions due to the acceleration g.O.g referred to earlier.
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Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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rb_stretch ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742 |
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I sail most Sundays against a well sailed 300. I agree with you that it can't point that well, certainly not as high as a Phantom. That also explains why it feels faster, as it is going faster, just not making a correspondingly quick VMG. Anyway we both seem comfortable with our inland PY of 1000 for the 300 and 1020 for the Phantom.
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Well the reason for the interest is that at a PY of 1000, it would form the basis for a 'standard' to judge everything else by. It strikes me the whole handicap thing is in a bit of a muddle at the moment with certain boats 'targeted' while others get forgotten about and I wonder how much of that is to do with 'noise' we make here.
Case to point the Phantom versus the Blaze, both have their conditions, nothing much has changed between them, there are modern versions of both yet the Phantom has been hounded down to what did I see up there 1020 yet the Blaze remains at 1040 when in truth they were already quite well matched I felt, so if one moved the other should also, but then has their relationship with the 300 altered, probably not, then the Laser is quietly getting slower and slower (really has it got slower, no, it's been targetted as a possible source for more competition entrants for events so is artificially being boosted imv). I think the whole yardstick methodology is wrong, I think it would be more scientific if a controlled group of known sailors raced the damn things once a year in a round robin and just did it by committee rather than leaving it to the way it happens right now, anyway that's my rant over, I'm back to my own yardstick calculation spreadsheet. Edited by iGRF - 10 Jan 13 at 5:10pm |
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winging it ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
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I wish there were such a thing. I sailed the megabyte off 1074 at the Brass Monkey, 1060 at Alton Water, was given 1020 for the Grafham Grand Prix, goodness knows what I'll get for the BM, then I'm back to 1074 for the Steve Nicks.
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the same, but different...
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tick ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Nov 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
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As far as I could ever see the 300 is spot on inland if (as someone said) it is not in moderate wind when Phantoms, certainly on their old PY did very well. At our club we had 6 of them at one time but sailors drifted away because it was so difficult. In the end, last season, we had two, now one because of emigration. The 'boy' won an open in a borrowed boat a few years ago in light winds. To surprised onlookers he was heard to say, "I just sailed it like a Lightning". So yes I think they would make a good yardstick......for the yardstick. !000 is about right for a good sailor in one. Mind you after the Nationals in Looe 6 years ago my experienced friend and 300 sailor "Pabs" came back in tears because of the waves......but I don't think Steve Bolland was that troubled.
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rb_stretch ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742 |
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I used "inland PY" deliberately, because the official RYA PY is 1025. My club took the decision to knock it a bit further because they felt we were still placing too well (although no Phantom has yet to lift a club trophy, which more often than not are won by Solos). I did query the decision, but to be honest 5 points isn't worth arguing about, so we just hike harder. Just hope it isn't the thin end of a new wedge, because there comes a point the constant knocking turns you off - my knees can only take so much hiking. Anyway, some of the sea sailors are already saying they struggle to sail against the RYA PY, so it sounds like there is some difference between inland and sea for the Phantom PY. Either people accept the average or we're going to have to create separate PYs for different locations.
Back to your point, I suspect there is some truth in it, but I'm not sure you have a better answer.
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