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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Quiz Question
    Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 9:14pm
Thankfully, when umpiring, most rule 15 and 16 penalties that I give do not involve contact.

On the water the fast tack or gybe - when the crew is ready and prepared - is very different from the crash tack or gybe to avoid a collision. The absence of preparation is often a tell tale sign.

And, increasingly, we seem to be giving more penalties for breaches of 15 and 16 and far fewer for 10,11,12 and 13. In other words boats, in team racing or match racing, seem to know how to keep clear unless the ROW boat does not give room when acquiring right of way or changing course.

Wouldn 't be the first time that there are differences of interpretation between umpires, who view the incident, and judges, who reconstruct the incident. Or, as any rugby fan will know, between sports officials in the northern and southern hemispheres!
Gordon
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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Brass

I particularly dislike the language about 'crash tack' and 'crash gybe'.  I don't think there is any such thing.
With the greatest respect, I think there is.
 
In my boat with symmetric spinaker, we typically dead run with the crew sat well to windward with sheet and guy in hand; helm sat well to leeward steering and trimming main.
 
A normal "seamanlike" gybe would involve probably 5 to 10 seconds of prep - crew re-trims spinaker to keep it flying through the gybe, helm moves to centre, cleats main, takes guy and sheet from crew and moves to steering with tiller between knees. Only now would we be in position to gybe in our normal seamanlike manner, and if its windy we'd probably look to pick a moment some time in perhaps the next 10 or 20 seconds when wind / wave conditions make gybing safest.
 
On the other hand, if another boat unexpectedly forced our hand we could gybe immediately from our normal running position in order to avoid a collision. But in light to medium conditions we'd come out of it with spinaker collapsed, crew at risk of getting hit by the boom, possibly sheets tangled etc, and in heavy weather there'd be a very high chance of wiping out.
 
I think "crash gybe" would be a fair description of the latter situation...
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 10:35pm
Maybe Brass would be happier with "unprepared" tack or gybe
Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Thanks for some great replies people. In terms of the original question, how about:
 
"Under what circumstances might a starboard tack boat be penalised for failing to avoid contact with a port tack boat?"
 
Not perfect but hopefully good enough to get my original point across. Which was an attempt to stimulate some of our sailors to think a bit harder about the rules - eg being close-hauled on starboard doesn't mean you can stop looking out for other boats.
I think you got your original point across pretty clearly, but there are still difficulties with the 'rules lingo' in respect to the questions you are asking.
 
The answer to your present question lies wholly in rule 14 and is:
A starboard tack boat may be penalised for failing to avoid contact with a port tack boat on every occasion when, acting no sooner than it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, it was reasonably possible to avoid contact and the contact causes damage or injury.
 
What JimC and I are trying to get across is that your list of 'exceptions' is pretty sound, within the imprecise notion of 'exceptions' but that, in terms of coaching sailors in rules or tactics (or worse still, in adjudicting protests), the list is a bit long to learn by heart and there are nuanced different obligations (give room, give mark-room, avoid, not interfere etc) that need to be applied.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by gordon

Thankfully, when umpiring, most rule 15 and 16 penalties that I give do not involve contact.

On the water the fast tack or gybe - when the crew is ready and prepared - is very different from the crash tack or gybe to avoid a collision. The absence of preparation is often a tell tale sign.

And, increasingly, we seem to be giving more penalties for breaches of 15 and 16 and far fewer for 10,11,12 and 13. In other words boats, in team racing or match racing, seem to know how to keep clear unless the ROW boat does not give room when acquiring right of way or changing course.

Wouldn 't be the first time that there are differences of interpretation between umpires, who view the incident, and judges, who reconstruct the incident. Or, as any rugby fan will know, between sports officials in the northern and southern hemispheres!
Very nice observation about the difference between umpiring and protest hearing.
 
I would tend to think that MR and TR competitors have a more 'finessed' approach to the on-water rules than many club and keelboat racers, which is likely to shift the balance between keep clear and room to keep clear.  In particular, I think MR/TR competitors are likely to hunt up or down much more agressively, but more precisely, than in ordinary fleet racing:  the risk/reward balance is better, and it's more part of 'the game'.
 
I don't think it would be fair to take my opinion as representative of Australian judges:  its just an opinion based on the observations as I see them.
 
Originally posted by gordon

Maybe Brass would be happier with "unprepared" tack or gybe
 
Thank you.  Yes I would.  Infinitely.
 
My experience is that protest parties who use the term 'crash tack' and 'crash gybe' are usually the ones on the lower side of the 'competent but not expert and sufficient number ' standard.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 12 at 3:07am
Originally posted by Brass

Perhaps Gordon and I will have to disagree, or perhaps I can persuade him that most rule 15/16 breaches are established by by contact between the boats..
I certainly don't want attack Gordon's experience and judgement but I have just trawled through the London Olympics protests.  Here's what I found.
 
There were 12 valid protests initially for breaches of rule 15, 16, or 18.  2 citing rule 15, 5 citing rule 16, and 7 citing rule 18 (there were overlaps with protests involving more than one rule).
 
Of these 12 cases:
  • 5 for failing to give mark-room were upheld and a boat was penalised and that boat was found to have made contact and broken rule 14 (cases 3, 34, 36, 41, and 57)
  • 4 protests, initially for breaches of rule 15/16 were upheld, but no breach of rule 15/16 was found, and a boat was penalised for a breach of rules 10 or 11 and that boat was found to have made contact and broken rule 14. (cases 27, 30, 50, and 56)
  • 2 were dismissed with the conclusion that the protestee had given room, adn in both these cases, there was no contact. (cases 22 and 45).
  • 1 case involved several boats where the penalised boat failed to give mark-room and caused contact between two other boats.

Nine out of ten cases of failing to give room involved contact.

Two out of two cases where a protest against a boat alleged to have failed to give room were dismissed did not involve contact.
 
Most established cases of failing to give room involve contact between boats QED.
 
Take home lesson for young players:
  • If you have just acquired right of way close to another boat by your own actions (e.g. tack onto starboard), or other than actions of the other boat (e.g. you establish leeward hook-up), and there is contact,  you have proabably broken rule 15 and you should consider taking a penalty.
  • If you are right of way boat and are changing course close to another boat and there is contact, you have probably broken rule 16 and you should consider taking a penalty.
  • You will just have to learn rules 18 and 19 incrementally.  To start with you are safe if you just allow everybody else room to round marks, then you can step up to applying rule 18.2( b ) at downwind and wing marks, when your are overlepped inside or clear ahead at the zone, then, as you better learn the rules, you can apply the subtleties more and more. 


Edited by Brass - 11 Dec 12 at 4:38am
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 12 at 10:00am
I would conclude that most rule 15 and 16 breaches that do not involove contact are not brought to the protest room! This may well be because, especially at the highest level, competitors avoid the jury room as much as possible when there is the shadow of a doubt about the possible outcome of the result.


I have been at MR events (including evets where the majority of the teams were going to the Olympics)where almost no penalties were given for rules 10-13. The majrity of penalties were for 15 and 16. Good sailors know how to keep clear if they re given room to do so.
Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 12 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by gordon

I would conclude that most rule 15 and 16 breaches that do not involove contact are not brought to the protest room! This may well be because, especially at the highest level, competitors avoid the jury room as much as possible when there is the shadow of a doubt about the possible outcome of the result.


I have been at MR events (including evets where the majority of the teams were going to the Olympics)where almost no penalties were given for rules 10-13. The majrity of penalties were for 15 and 16. Good sailors know how to keep clear if they re given room to do so.
I don't want to go on and on about this, but the stats from the Olympics say exactly the opposite.
 
NO protests for breach of rules 15/16 were upheld and nearly ALL those protests resulted in the give way boat being penalised for not keeping clear.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 12 at 1:03pm
I am always wary of stats. The stats from the 7 Olympic cases involving rule 15 and 16 are based only on protests lodged not on breaches of the rules. 

I would conclude that the statistics from the Olympics show that competitors have decided that it is not worth bothering protesting for rule 15/16 breaches that do not involve contact. This may be that it is difficult to demonstrate that rules have been broken without contact, or, more likely, that top class competitors are reluctant to risk going to protest when they consider that the result is aleatory.

When race officials are able to see the incidents the number of penalties for breaches of rule 15 and 16 increases greatly. This is because race officials on the water can clearly see the difference between a prepared manoeuvre and a  manoeuvre forced by the actions of the ROW boat. It may well be that umpires are interpreting the rules slightly more strictly because they are working at events in which the organisers provide the boats.
Gordon
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 12 at 3:19pm
I'm with Gordon on that...

And I do sometimes struggle to switch between team racing and fleet racing...the classic example is the TR call that limits hunting by a starboard tacker on the beat (if an immediate alteration of course is required than the STer has infirnged?)...to fleet racing where boats continue to alter course at very close range directly in order to prevent one continuing on a course where one is keeping clear and at a very late stage resulting in a crash change of course.

Absolutely no chance of a decision in the room....and you better do that crash tack because every club PC in the world is going to lob the port tacker.
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