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Brass View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 4:16am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

I agree that your definition is better, but it's putting the emphasis on the wrong boat! What I was trying to come up with was a list of situations where the rules place the onus on S to avoid P (be it by keeping clear, giving room or whatever), as a way of making people think a bit about their obligations and not just their rights.
(It also doesn't cover the rule 14 case...)
I see where you are coming from.
 
Doesn't an approach following the Section A, B, C, and D structure of Part 2 pretty much get you there?
 
Section A - Right of Way Rules
 
One boat is always the Right of Way boat, and the other is the Keep Clear boat.  The starting point of any rules situation is Am I the Right of Way boat?
 
Section B - General Limitations [on Right of Way]
 
Starts with rule 14:  If you are keeping clear you will avoid contact.  If you are the Right of way Boat you must avoid contact if reasonably possible.
 
Rules 15 and 16 usually follow on from rule 14, because they are usually only broken when there is contact.
 
Section C - [Limitations on Right of Way] At Marks and Obstructions
 
Special rules for going round corners.
 
Dummies version:  Regardless of whether you are Right of Way or not, don't run anybody off the road;  don't run anybody into the wall.
 
Once you move up from the dummies version, you just have to try to learn the rule, practice and apply it.
 
Section D - Other Rules - Extra Special, unusual and weird situations
 
Some of which you should be able to remember because they are so weird, and most of which won't trouble you because they are unusual.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 7:08am
Agree with Brass... the original post/quiz creates confusion because it talks about "keep clear" requirements changing, but that's a definition with a specific meaning so to talk about the requirements changing makes the rules sound more complicated than they actually are.

The basic ROW rules are pretty straightforward, and provided you don't push things in close quarters situations they are easy enough to deal with. All the complications come in close quarters situations where boats may be changing course rapidly. If in doubt don't get into those situations! This is the major difference between Col Regs and RRS and why RRS are so much more complex. Colregs say "don't get into close quarters situations": RRS give you details of how to deal with them if you have studied adequately.

Brass' summary of how the Sctions interact is really neat, and is a very useful study aid I think...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 9:25am
Not sure the OP was using the words "keep Clear" as in the rules definition - more in the "keep out of the way" sense. From that point of view, whether you are giving mark room or genuinely "keeping clear" makes no odds in the spirit of this thread - they are still situations where the port boat has to be avoided, and not the other way round.

What I find interesting is the number of situations that are listed, yet what short time periods they tend to apply for before normal service prevails.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Not sure the OP was using the words "keep Clear" as in the rules definition - more in the "keep out of the way" sense. From that point of view, whether you are giving mark room or genuinely "keeping clear" makes no odds in the spirit of this thread - they are still situations where the port boat has to be avoided, and not the other way round.
Firstly, regardless of what OP had in mind originally, obligations to keep clear, give room, give mark-room, avoid and not interfere with are not all the same.
 
If you tell a sailor that when they are on starboard tack a boat on port tack must keep clear of them, but if they are changing course they must keep clear of the port tacker, you will seriously confuse them.  You have to make some sort of semantic differentiation.
 
What I think JimC is agreeing with is that there needs to be some sort of structure and logic to the rules to assist recollection, understanding and application, otherwise the sailor will have to learn 12 'rules of exception' off by heart and then try to apply them, without any logical structure to help them. 
 
Originally posted by Rupert

What I find interesting is the number of situations that are listed, yet what short time periods they tend to apply for before normal service prevails.
 
Agree, After all, Part 2 is called When Boats Meet, and boats spend a lot of time sailing without meeting.  All the moreso, most times boats 'meet' the Section A Right of Way rules work just fine, and the Limitations, and Extra Special rules apply even more rarely.
 
Rules 18 and 19 get a bit more use, because boats tend to converge at marks and obstructions.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Not sure the OP was using the words "keep Clear" as in the rules definition - more in the "keep out of the way" sense.


Most probably - but I submit that there lies insanity...

It seems to me that a substantial number of problems people have with the rules is that they read the text of the rules, but don't read the definitions, and without an understanding of the definitions the rules are pretty much impossible to understand in detail.

And if you use "defined" phrases in a conversation where the context is the rules, but with a meaning that differs from the definition, then I think the potential for confusion and misunderstanding multiplies enormously.

Think of it: if you were attempting to explain an aspect of the rules to a beginner, and in that conversation you were sometimes using the phrase "keep clear" to the RRS definition and sometimes with a generic meaning of "do not collide with", then unless that beginner was a great deal smarter than I am I suggest they'd be bound to come out more confused than they were to start with...
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Brass



>COLREGS haven't given a starboard boat sailing downwind
rights over a port tacker close hauled for about 50 years





Colregs 12 a)
1).when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel with the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other.
11) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out ofthe way of ther vessel which is to leeward.
111) If a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the the other vessel has the wind on the port or strboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 12 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass



>COLREGS haven't given a starboard boat sailing downwind
rights over a port tacker close hauled for about 50 years


Colregs 12 a)
1).when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel with the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other.
11) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out ofthe way of ther vessel which is to leeward.
111) If a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the the other vessel has the wind on the port or strboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.
OK, thank you, my omission.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 8:14am
Brass said : 
"Rules 15 and 16 usually follow on from rule 14, because they are usually only broken when there is contact."

I would disagree. A ROW of boat does not give room if she does not give the space the other boat needs n the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamalike way.

If the keep clear boat, after the ROW boat acquires right of way or changes course, is obliged to manoeuvre in an unseamalike way then ROW boat has broken one of the two rules (15, 16).

A crash tack, a crash gybe, a near miss that owes as much to good luck as to good boat-handling, hitting a mark, an "emergency" luff or bear away... all these can be considered unseamanlike. To quote the TR Call Book "General Principles for umpire decisions (not authorative except for team racing, but providing guidance) "... any manoeuvre that puts aboat or crew at risk of damage is unseamanlike." damage does not necessarily result from contacts between boats.

Fortunately for all our insurance premiums, boats can break these rules without going to contact.
Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 8:34pm
Perhaps Gordon and I will have to disagree, or perhaps I can persuade him that most rule 15/16 breaches are established by by contact between the boats..
 
Have a look through your old protest notes and published protest decisions:  I think that's what you will find.
 
I am well aware of the theoretical possibility that contact might only be avoided by a ) the give way boat being compelled to manoeuvre in an unseamanlike manner, b ) only by the right of way boat taking action to avoid contact, or c ) only by a miraculous close shave, in which case rule 15/16 will have been broken without there being contact.  My observation is that these circumstances are in the minority of cases.
 
I particularly dislike the language about 'crash tack' and 'crash gybe'.  I don't think there is any such thing.  Boats can and do tack quickly, and gybe quickly.  Competitors spend hours training to do exactly this.  Get your stopwatch out and take a look at how quickly boats can tack or gybe when they want to:  that's how quickly they can tack or gybe when they are obliged to do so 'promptly'.
 
Likewise I would have huge difficulty in differentiating between an 'emergency' luff or bear away, and just executing such a simple and relatively unrisky manoeuvre quickly or promptly.
 
Certainly the 3 or 4 seconds it takes a Laser to to tack, might be (minusculely) less than a fully trapped 505, and appreciably less than, say an IOR Maxi with runners and the whole crew hiked on the rail (or the sail training ship I recently read about where the skipper claimed that his tacking process occupied nine minutes).
 
Certainly a boat with a pole and sym spinnaker will take longer to gybe than a mono sail or an assy boat, but competent crews don't take all that long.
 
Of course, it depends on the existing wind and wave conditions, partiicularly gybes, where, in heavy conditions, it might indeed be seamanllike to wait for wave conditions before gybing.  On the other hand, in light conditions, tacking all-standing with the headsail aback is a perfectly seamanlike way of heaving to.
 
I am also well aware of Case 103 which sets the standard to be expected as that of a 'competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number', and I am happy to give a bit of leeway about 'competent' depending on the level of the event.
 
I do quite like the guidance from the TR call book about putting a boat or crew at risk of damage.
 
My bottom line is that I do believe that most rule 15/16 breaches result in contact and that rule 14 thus forms a useful logical link between the Section A Right of Way rules and Section B Limitations giving room to keep clear rules.
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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 12 at 9:08pm
Thanks for some great replies people. In terms of the original question, how about:
 
"Under what circumstances might a starboard tack boat be penalised for failing to avoid contact with a port tack boat?"
 
Not perfect but hopefully good enough to get my original point across. Which was an attempt to stimulate some of our sailors to think a bit harder about the rules - eg being close-hauled on starboard doesn't mean you can stop looking out for other boats.
 
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