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sargesail View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Jan 06
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing Instructions interpretation...
    Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:38pm
Gordon,

Happened at my last event too....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.

But I can't say I was surprised - all the rules/results work was poor.....I'll PM you later to ask your advice about what to do if I am in the same situation again...don;t want to air teh laundry on here!
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:41am
Originally posted by sargesail

Gordon,

Happened at my last event too....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.

But I can't say I was surprised - all the rules/results work was poor.....I'll PM you later to ask your advice about what to do if I am in the same situation again...don;t want to air teh laundry on here!
 
Maybe the discussion here will help
 
 
That discussion focussed more on mid to long term issues within a club.  Problems with a specific regatta are more short term:  you usually only get a sniff of the problem when you first see the Draft or (worse still) Final SI.
 
I've said before that there are problems with bad or silly SI that the authors refuse to change.
 
One of the early signs of this problem is that the SI drafters omit or downright refuse to provide copies of the draft SI to the protest committee chair for review and/or ignore advice coming from such a review.
 
If it's your own club or race committee you may foresee problems in the organisation and planning phase.  Your challenge is then how to do the inter-personal politics and the actual work (redrafting SI, Briefing or re-training Asst RO, etc) in a short time-frame.  But that's nothing but an organisational change problem:  there's nothing the RRS that will give you much help (except just keep hammering people to use Appendix L/LE and not muck with it).
 
Edit:  And don't be afaid to amend SI in the course of the regatta if and when problems emerge or are confirmed.
 
You mentioned results and scoring.  That's something that is still only thinly covered in the new RM Manual.  If its not being done by someone who you KNOW will do a good job, then this needs to be carefully planned and reveiwed.
 
From a judges' point of view, if you haven't appointed an experienced and diligent jury secretary, then you need to make sure that all of the duties of the jury secretary shown in the Judges Manual Chap 8 are going to be effectively performed by someone.  That will do a huge amount to keep the results and protests issues on track. 


Edited by Brass - 16 Aug 12 at 12:57am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Joined: 04 Apr 07
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 9:59am
Originally posted by sargesail

....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.
 
They could have still applied for redress irrespective of any 'Protest time limits'.
Sometimes a problem is not apparent until after results are posted by the race committee, this can sometimes be hours or even days/weeks after the race in question! If you can give a legitimate reason why the protest/redress request was submitted outside the protest limit then it should still have been considered.
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ChrisJ View Drop Down
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Posts: 337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 3:46pm
The event SargeSail was talking about: In the second race of the week, we started next to the CB (large yacht). We believed we were behind the line, but were certainly close (i.e. alongside the yacht, not waiting at its stern).
Results came out, we were DSQed. Queried it, and were told "only DSQ would be OCS". DRAT said the crew - and for the rest of the week refused to let me get close to the line at the start, in case my eyesight had gone... So this result affected every race after that.

At the end of the week, we were told "You didn't go around the spacer mark".
Actually we DID, and while doing so we ran into the back of the boat ahead, and hit the buoy at the same time :-( By the time we had completed the various turns, we had drifted with the tide almost into the line of boats between windward mark and the spacer. So on completing the turns we bore away quick and hoisted the kite... That was when we were spotted by either rescue boat or another competitor.
But we didn't know this until after the prize giving at the end of the week. And by then we were preparing to head for home, and even if they had re-instated us it couldn't alter the "don't go near the line" calls from the crew with 15 seconds to go.

Still: The crew says "we wont be going back there again".
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 12 at 6:34am
A5 SCORES DETERMINED BY THE RACE COMMITTEE
A boat that did not start, comply with rule 30.2 or 30.3, or finish, or that takes a penalty under rule 44.3(a) or retires after finishing, shall be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing. Only the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a  boat’s score.
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