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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Contrasting Sail Numbers...
    Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:06am
This was triggered by something I saw on another forum, but its a general issue that pops up every few years: some sailmaker or another starts shipping sails with numbers that are not in a very contrasting colour from the mainsail. I remember a fashion for yellow numbers some years ago for instance. I suppose the idea is that boats are less likely to be identified in a BFD situation.

Which got me thinking... Supposing in a black flag start the RO has been unable to identify a number of boats with low contrast sail numbers but has not had problems with the boats with standard black/red ones. If sufficiently provoked (warning given with no action maybe) would the RC be justified in rounding up *every* boat in the fleet with such sail numbers and protesting under Rule 2 and the PC potentially issuing the lot with a DND each?

The other question that occurs to me is supposing with the use of such numbers the RC is not very clear on the identity of finishers. What is their responsibility?

Oh and please don't turn this into a guessing game for what sailmaker or class might have triggered my thoughts: to my mind its a serious issue with general application.

Edited by JimC - 17 Jul 12 at 8:32am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:45am
A thorny question indeed Jim. I can 100% understand where you are coming from with various darker colour laminates currently being used for sails it is difficult to know what colour numbers to use.

I would guess for a rule 2 you would have prove that the sailor intentionally chose those numbers so they were not easily visible.

In reality most people leave numbering up to the sail maker they purchase the sail from.

I would say perhaps some guidance from classes that allow laminate sails is probably the easiest way forward, certainly easier than trying to get the RRS made more prescriptive than it already is with regards to sail numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:50am
Start with G4,  before resorting to 2, IMHO. Nothing to stop the RC strongly suggesting proper compliance with G1.2: say, a little briefing note reminding people that if the RC can't see their sail numbers properly - especially against the sun - then they might well not get recorded properly at the finish. 

G1.2 Specifications
(a) National letters and sail numbers shall be in capital letters and Arabic numerals, clearly legible and of the same colour. Commercially available typefaces giving the same or better legibility than Helvetica are acceptable.

G4 WARNINGS AND PENALTIES
When a protest committee finds that a boat has broken a rule of this appendix it shall either warn her and give her time to comply or penalize her.


Edited by Presuming Ed - 17 Jul 12 at 11:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 9:19am
I think Presuming Ed's approach is better.
 
Ideally at big events with measurment or scrutineering this sort of thing should be picked up by whoever is doing that and at the very least an informal warning and directions to the nearest chandler with a stock of sensibly coloured numbers provided (there will always be a place for light-coloured numbers if the sail colour is dark, after all)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 11:21am
Re colours, I remember seeing something (?from RORC?) recommending white on dark (carbon) laminates, and blue/black on light laminates/dacron. Can't find it now, though.
 
I see that the Moths specify blue, black or red only.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 11:59am
Originally posted by JimC

The other question that occurs to me is supposing with the use of such numbers the RC is not very clear on the identity of finishers. What is their responsibility?
On a quick skim, the ISAF race committee manual calls for race management of "the required standard", and the RYA race charter calls for "race management to acceptable standards [and] appropriate to the event."
 
IMHO, if the RC, using their best endeavours, and standard procedures as laid out in the various manuals, can't distinguish a boat's sail numbers at the finish and make an error, if the sail number aren't clearly legible then gaining redress might not be straightforward.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Start with G4,  before resorting to 2, IMHO. Nothing to stop the RC strongly suggesting proper compliance with G1.2: say, a little briefing note reminding people that if the RC can't see their sail numbers properly - especially against the sun - then they might well not get recorded properly at the finish. 

G1.2 Specifications
(a) National letters and sail numbers shall be in capital letters and Arabic numerals, clearly legible and of the same colour. Commercially available typefaces giving the same or better legibility than Helvetica are acceptable.

G4 WARNINGS AND PENALTIES
When a protest committee finds that a boat has broken a rule of this appendix it shall either warn her and give her time to comply or penalize her.

As I read it G1 only applies to International Classes and  Recognised Classes (what is the definition of a Recognised Class?)

As an aside,  G1.3(c):
(c) National letters shall be placed above the sail number.
would make most Flying Fifteens out of class. (clicky)



Edited by JohnW - 17 Jul 12 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:15pm

RYA PRESCRIPTIONS:

APPENDIX G IDENTIFICATION ON SAILS
G1 Identification, Specifications, Positioning
The requirements of rules G1.1, G1.2 and G1.3 apply to all British owned boats except that:
(a) under rule G1.1(a), class insignia need not be carried when the boat carries a sail number from one of the series specified in G2(a), (b), (c) or (d) below.
(b) under rule G1.1(c), a sail number of more than four digits may be carried.
(c) under rule G1.1(c), for boats other than ISAF classes, one of the authorities specified in G2 below shall allot an appropriate sail number.
(d) under rule G1.2(b), the height of a letter included as part of a sail number shall be the same as any numerals included in the sail number.
(e) under rule G1.3(c), the national letters may be placed in front of or above the sail numbers.


Edited by Presuming Ed - 17 Jul 12 at 12:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

RYA PRESCRIPTIONS:

APPENDIX G IDENTIFICATION ON SAILS
G1 Identification, Specifications, Positioning
The requirements of rules G1.1, G1.2 and G1.3 apply to all British owned boats except that:
(a) under rule G1.1(a), class insignia need not be carried when the boat carries a sail number from one of the series specified in G2(a), (b), (c) or (d) below.
(b) under rule G1.1(c), a sail number of more than four digits may be carried.
(c) under rule G1.1(c), for boats other than ISAF classes, one of the authorities specified in G2 below shall allot an appropriate sail number.
(d) under rule G1.2(b), the height of a letter included as part of a sail number shall be the same as any numerals included in the sail number.
(e) under rule G1.3(c), the national letters may be placed in front of or above the sail numbers.

Ok thanks Ed.  

The RYA Prescriptions are something that I have not been aware of before, I guess I should have read rule 86 more carefully.

I have learnt something new today.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 2:20pm
No worries.
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