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RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes

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pompeysailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pompeysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes
    Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:56pm
Sailed around in an SB3 last year and it was ok (just about!). The only SB3's who seemed to retire were hired out boats and the RYA squad... This year didn't seem quite as windy... so the call to cancel the J80, SB3 and other classes was mystifying to say the least. 
This year saw plenty of SB3's, J80's and Sportsboats still going around. Good on you guys :)
On the water we saw 30knots a couple of times, but generally it was a lot less.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Doesn't need citation, we got a result, our class was abandoned. We did not feature in the IRC overall results, just the line honours board.  We therefore were racing.

Peliminary list of finishers, not final results. I can find no reference to a line honours board in any documentation. The only reference to line honours in the SI refers to prizes. RRS 90.2 - no SIs, no race. 

Originally posted by laser193713

Going back to a previous point about not being clipped on. This is not an offshore race, so why should we need to clip on.  Have a watch of this video, explain to me how we are meant to slow that boat down to a speed mentioned in the video. Trust me, there is no way to stop this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUx6oZTCQc8&feature=player_embedded#!

It's run under ISAF offshore special regs cat 4, with exceptions. The only boats not required to comply with cat 4 are the Sportsboat Class, J/80, 707 and Laser SB3. I.e. the abandoned fleets. 

Originally posted by laser193713

Don't moan at us for being unsafe, it was the Olympic hot shots on Kolga that weren't wearing their life jackets despite Y flag flying http://image2.roundtheisland.org.uk/web/photos/2012/ngr/lowres/080008.jpg 

That's not good. Many boats were DSQd for not wearing lifejackets. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 2:36pm
  

Smile  Smile  Smile



Edited by Presuming Ed - 03 Jul 12 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mister Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by rogerd

I cant think of a nice way to put this but it has been said politely earlier on in the thread.

My father had a good way of putting it...
 
Sh*t happens...... get over it.
 
Having said that I do sympathise that you missed your day out but its not the ISCs fault it was to windy. Huge amounts of time and effort go into organising any event and if the weathers not right on the day no one should expect a refund. A few years ago it was a drifter and everyone rafted up at the needles. Many retired, motored out of trouble and carried on RTI some went home. Should the ISC have refunded entry fees because the weather spoilt peoples fun? I think not.

No one would have had any problems with certain classes being cancelled had it actually been too windy but realistically it wasn't and that's what has got peoples backs up. The J80 is certified to sail in winds of up to 41 knots and waves up to 13ft in 'conditions which may be encountered on offshore voyages of sufficient length or on coasts where shelter may not always be immediately available'. That is far from the conditions which were actually seen on the water. Other boats which were less seaworthy and stable were still allowed to race which makes no sense. People are expecting compensation or at least an apology/acknowledgement of a mistake because they feel that the situation was handled incorrectly and inconsistently. I can understand that they need to cater for everyones safety and make sure that they do their best to stop people from getting into trouble but most of us just think they've gone about it in the wrong way.



Edited by Mister Nick - 03 Jul 12 at 4:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Mister Nick

Other boats which were less seaworthy and stable were still allowed to race which makes no sense.


If, as P/Ed states above, all and only classes that are not Category 4 compliant were cancelled, then that's entirely logical and makes complete sense.

ISAF Category 4 is
4 Short races, close to shore in relatively warm or protected waters normally held in daylight.
whilst
Category 5 Special Regulations are intended for use in short races, close to shore in relatively warm and protected waters where adequate shelter and/or effective rescue is available all along the course, held in daylight only.


The lack of shelter on the South coast of the Island suggests to me that the race is correctly classified as Category 4.

Weather forecasting is not a precise art. Quite probably what you got was at the bottom end of the forecast - we got more wind inland (regular 30 and occasional 35 knot gusts) about 50 miles north of the Solent that day. If ISC get a lot of whinging the obvious response is to declare the race category 4 only... Be careful what you ask for. I wouldn't like to be the person trying to justify to Jeremy Paxman why non Cat 4 boats were allowed if things had gone badly wrong.

Edited by JimC - 03 Jul 12 at 4:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Mister Nick

[

No one would have had any problems with certain classes being cancelled had it actually been too windy but realistically it wasn't and that's what has got peoples backs up. The J80 is certified to sail in winds of up to 41 knots and waves up to 13ft in 'conditions which may be encountered on offshore voyages of sufficient length or on coasts where shelter may not always be immediately available'. That is far from the conditions which were actually seen on the water. Other boats which were less seaworthy and stable were still allowed to race which makes no sense. People are expecting compensation or at least an apology/acknowledgement of a mistake because they feel that the situation was handled incorrectly and inconsistently. I can understand that they need to cater for everyones safety and make sure that they do their best to stop people from getting into trouble but most of us just think they've gone about it in the wrong way.



So can you find a weather forecaster who would have guaranteed no wind over 41knots and no waves over 13ft, with the info that was available at decision time?
What was seen on the water with hindsight is not really the point.

The J80 is probably the most seaworthy of the sportsboats (it would not look very out of place in IRC), the race officers would be basing  the decision on the least seaworthy and the worst anticipated conditions.
Looking at the pictures of the big tri at Hurst, it was not flat in that area at the time when decisions need to be made.

 I wouldn't be surprised if the ISC consider not accepting entries from Sportsboats in future, the event is big enough with yachts. The event was there before sportsboats were invented and could live without them. Is that what you want?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

 we got more wind inland about 50 miles north of the Solent that day.

That would concur with the 30 knot gusts we got at Hayling then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mister Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


So can you find a weather forecaster who would have guaranteed no wind over 41knots and no waves over 13ft, with the info that was available at decision time?
What was seen on the water with hindsight is not really the point.

The J80 is probably the most seaworthy of the sportsboats (it would not look very out of place in IRC), the race officers would be basing  the decision on the least seaworthy and the worst anticipated conditions.
Looking at the pictures of the big tri at Hurst, it was not flat in that area at the time when decisions need to be made.

 I wouldn't be surprised if the ISC consider not accepting entries from Sportsboats in future, the event is big enough with yachts. The event was there before sportsboats were invented and could live without them. Is that what you want?

No because no weather forecaster in their right mind is going to risk losing all credibility by claiming to guarantee something that they cannot. Raymarine seemed to be taken on as the official forecasters for the event so I would assume that ISC would be taking into consideration what they said and that was (from memory) that winds in the 30 knot region were the max that was likely to be experienced and on the actual day of the event several other forecasters were saying very similar things. Those conditions are well within the capability of a J80. If you start cancelling events or class starts simply because there is a slight chance that forecasts have been wrong and that you might end up with nasty weather then people are just going to stop bothering to travel to events. Unless there is a significant chance that weather beyond the capabilities of a boat is going to be experienced then it should be left to the owner to decide whether they can handle it. No doubt a majority of the sportsboat crews who had entered are hugely more experienced and competent that some of the cruising sailors who had entered and were still allowed to race.

I'm completely in agreement that they were correct to stop the less seaworthy boats going out. I wouldn't be happy doing it in a SB3 in 30 knots and big seas myself. But in that case, they should have just stopped specific types of boat from racing that were likely to be a liability and get into trouble. A J80 isn't going to behave as an SB3 or 'proper' sportsboat will in bad weather.

It's definitely the wrong move to refuse entries to sportsboats. At the moment that is where a lot of sailors are heading to, the number of 30 foot+ boats being raced is in decline and it's only going to keep heading that way until people can afford it again. 


Edited by Mister Nick - 03 Jul 12 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Mister Nick

....
I'm completely in agreement that they were correct to stop the less seaworthy boats going out. I wouldn't be happy doing it in a SB3 in 30 knots and big seas myself. But in that case, they should have just stopped specific types of boat from racing that were likely to be a liability and get into trouble. A J80 isn't going to behave as an SB3 or 'proper' sportsboat will in bad weather.
......



So really your issue is that J/80's are not in the same category as most 'Sportsboats'?
I wouldn't have much issue with that, but OTOH I can see that it would frequently be in their interests to be in the sports boat group, because you get more meaningful racing between a J/80 and a sportsboat than between a J/80 and say a J/24 or Sonata. In the same way as I'd rather have the RS400 categorised with other asymmetric boats than with Merlins.

It's a bit like Cowes Week, decisions have to be made with many hundreds of boats in mind, and individual classes cannot have the same focus as you would get at a single-class event. That's why I'm taking a break from Cowes weeks and doing class association events these days.

The RTIR is one of the great classics for all its flaws. I've done it about 9 or 10 times in conditions ranging from scary down to kedging. It's easy to find fault but 1600 entries tells us something.
It's not the only event that has had bad luck with weather this year.


Edited by RS400atC - 03 Jul 12 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 5:35pm
Firstly, if you wanted to race a J80 in IRC there was nothing in the rules to prevent that, provided you had entered that class. Obviously none had because of the J80 fleet. My point is that if there had been a J80 in the IRC 3C division then it would have been allowed to race. It wouldn't have been measurably safer than one racing in the J80 class. 

We decided on the way round that next year the boat would be entered in the ISC class as it is possible to meet the regulations still. That way you are pretty much guaranteed a race if anyone else gets one. 

I wouldn't really call the J80 a sportsboat either. It was abandoned as its own class, not a sportsboat. There were some racing in the IRC sportsboat class (a bit of an oxymoron) but they were not fitted with lifelines and are used for match racing.  As far as I know there is no such thing as an IRC sportsboat!? Wacko  

Would you like your thread shaken or stirred?  LOL
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