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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:47pm
But why would A shout protest? As far as she's concerned, B has acknowleged the infringement, and agreed to do a 2 turns penalty. In the pressure situation of a start, I can completely understand her not watching B the whole time. As far as A was concerned, the incident was over. It was only when she came ashore that she found out that B might not have actually completed her turns.
 
Do you shout protest at people after they've stuck up their hands and say they're going to do turns?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

I'm not sure how necessary a call of protest is.

BASIC PRINCIPLE
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

44 PENALTIES AT THE TIME OF AN INCIDENT
44.1 Taking a Penalty
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However, (a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31; (b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.

There is no requirement for a shout of protest to trigger a boat taking a one turn or two turn penalty. If you acknowledge an infringement, but then fail to do the turns you say you will do, then that's a clear breach of 2, and the basic principle, in my book.

Yes, but if the boat does not then take the penalty turn, you're left high and dry:   you don't have a valid protest to take to the room.
 
IF, big IF, there is acknowledgement of breaking a rule or a signal or indication that the boat would take a penalty, then we are looking at rule 2, no doubt.  But I'm not confident that we can infer that from nothing more than a boat bearing away:  maybe ohFFSake will dribble a little more evidence out to us in due course.
 
ohFFSake told us
Originally posted by ohFFsake

the alleged transgression of Rule 2 was the action of A in deceiving B into thinking she was going to take a penalty and then choosing not to do so as soon as B's back was turned.
 
That's an incident in the racing area that B is involved in, and C sees.
 
You're darn tootin B or C, if they intend to protest ... shall hail 'Protest', in accordance with rule 61.1(a).


Edited by Brass - 12 Jun 12 at 4:03pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by jeffers

There may be an ISAF case on this? If I get time I will take a look.
 
No ISAF case. There's RYA 1999/1.
 
I can easily imagine a situation where one boat is so stunned by what they see as an absoulutely blatent breach that they are truly astonished by the fact that the infringing boat isn't immediately doing turns that there are a few seconds between "Oi!" and "Protest (& flag)". Done it myself, I think (not the blatent infringement, of course, Pure as the driven snow, me.)
 
Again, a few seconds meaning exactly that. 30 isn't a few.


Edited by Presuming Ed - 12 Jun 12 at 4:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:12pm
Firstly, I think there is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees when hiding behind legal technicalities. Making me swallow a rule book before I can compete is not my idea of fun.

Secondly, in my uneducated opinion, I agree with PE. You don't protest someone for infringing a rule, you protest them for not exonerating themselves (including retiring). So first of all you have to establish that they are not going to exonerate themselves before you can shout 'protest'. And in this particular case, the first that B knew that A had not exonerated herself, was upon returning ashore - so there was no need to hail at the time of the incident if she believed that A knew she had fouled.

edit: swapping my A's and B's!

Edited by Peaky - 12 Jun 12 at 4:14pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Brass

You're darn tootin B or C, if they intend to protest ... shall hail 'Protest', in accordance with rule 61.1a.
 OK, vaguely related hypothetical for you.
 
Cats (or Moths?) in the pre start, at 5 seconds to the gun. P (on port), infringes S. P immediately shouts "OK, doing my turns"; the helm holds up his hand and makes eye contact with the helm of S. Both boats are at the favoured end, there are a couple of rows of starters, so it takes her 20 seconds to get clear. S sails off at 15 knots, so 20 seconds takes her 140 metres away - say 20 boat lengths. She's fighting to hold her line, concentrating hard on the first beat.
 
P only does 1 turn (44 is not amended in the SIs.).
 
X (who started in the third row) tells S after the race that P only did one turn. X hadn't seen the initial infringement. She didn't know why P was doing a turn - she assumes she hit the pin.
 
Who should shout protest, when, and why?
 
 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 12 Jun 12 at 4:16pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Firstly, I think there is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees when hiding behind legal technicalities. Making me swallow a rule book before I can compete is not my idea of fun.
Cut out the histrionics.
 
All you need to know is that if you think that another boat has broken a rule and want that other boat to be penalised, then you must hail 'Protest' and consipcuously display a red flag (if you are over 6m) at the first reasonable opportunity for each.
 
All the rest you can look up in the rule book at your leisure.
 
Originally posted by Peaky

Secondly, in my uneducated opinion, I agree with PE. You don't protest someone for infringing a rule, you protest them for not exonerating themselves (including retiring). So first of all you have to establish that they are not going to exonerate themselves before you can shout 'protest'. And in this particular case, the first that B knew that A had not exonerated herself, was upon returning ashore - so there was no need to hail at the time of the incident if she believed that A knew she had fouled. 
 
Well, your opinion, educated or otherwise is not in accordance with the rules and PEd never suggested that.  By definition a protest is an allegation that a boat has broken a rule.
 
If you wait until a boat has failed to take a penalty in accordance with rule 44 before hailing 'Protest' you have not hailed 'Protest' at the first reasonable opportunity.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Brass

You're darn tootin B or C, if they intend to protest ... shall hail 'Protest', in accordance with rule 61.1a.
 OK, vaguely related hypothetical for you.
 
Cats (or Moths?) in the pre start, at 5 seconds to the gun. P (on port), infringes S. P immediately shouts "OK, doing my turns"; the helm holds up his hand and makes eye contact with the helm of S. Both boats are at the favoured end, there are a couple of rows of starters, so it takes her 20 seconds to get clear. S sails off at 15 knots, so 20 seconds takes her 140 metres away - say 20 boat lengths. She's fighting to hold her line, concentrating hard on the first beat.
 
P only does 1 turn (44 is not amended in the SIs.).
 
X (who started in the third row) tells S after the race that P only did one turn. X hadn't seen the initial infringement. She didn't know why P was doing a turn - she assumes she hit the pin.
 
Who should shout protest, when, and why? 
S should hail 'Protest' immediately she takes action to avoid P.
 
Because that's the first reasonable opportunity after the initial (P/S) incident occurs, and if P thereafter fails to take her rule 44 penalty, if S has not hailed 'Protest' at the reasonable opportunity, any protest she makes about the incident will be invalid.
 
Because it's easy and foolproof.
 
So suppose that S can't quite manage to hail one little word, which even the French can now understand and use, at the time of the initial incident, she's desparately trying to pin something on P, and wants to run a rule 2 protest, alleging that P deceived her by saying "OK, doing my turns" and not doing them properly.
 
To give you a decent answer about when the 'deception' occurred, I would want to look at some legal cases about 'misrepresentation about future events', which I will do tomorrow if I can.
 
But I think there's a little flaw in your scenario.
 
It's not a breach of rule 2 to not know or understand a rule:  correct?
 
Then when P does 1 turn instead of 2, because she misunderstands the rules, she is not intentionally failing to comply with a rule, so she is not in breach of rule 2?
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
No ISAF case. There's RYA 1999/1.
 
I can easily imagine a situation where one boat is so stunned by what they see as an absoulutely blatent breach that they are truly astonished by the fact that the infringing boat isn't immediately doing turns that there are a few seconds between "Oi!" and "Protest (& flag)". Done it myself, I think (not the blatent infringement, of course, Pure as the driven snow, me.)
 
Again, a few seconds meaning exactly that. 30 isn't a few.

:

RYA 1999/1
Rule 61.1(a), Protest Requirements: Informing the 
Protestee
A protest flag must be kept close at hand. A boat that 
waits to see whether another boat will take a penalty 
before displaying a protest flag has not acted at the first 
reasonable opportunity. A protest committee need not 
investigate the promptness of the display of a protest 
flag when no question of delay arises in the written 
protest, and when the protestee, when asked, makes no 
objection. When a boat that is already displaying a 
protest flag wishes to protest again, only a hail is 
required.

Obviously this is an old case but still in the casebook, substitute 'hail' for 'flag' and you have you answer. Perhaps the RYA should update this case to fit with the current rules for boats less than 6m?

there are various questions under it but the preamble above gives us what we need here (IMO). The boat who felt they were infringed should have hailed protest.

As for the comments about not learning the rules before going racing this is a bit naive in my view (and we have discussed this before).

The RRS is a complex document but you should have a basic understanding before you go racing and then work on filling the gaps in (port/starboard, windward/leeward and inside boat at a mark is usually enough to start with when racing at club level). 

You sign up to say you are going to abide by the RRS when you sign on for a race....
Paul
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 4:48pm

Then when P does 1 turn instead of 2, because she misunderstands the rules, she is not intentionally failing to comply with a rule, so she is not in breach of rule 2?


Is ignorance an excuse? Perhaps at club level and with novice racers....
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Then when P does 1 turn instead of 2, because she misunderstands the rules, she is not intentionally failing to comply with a rule, so she is not in breach of rule 2?


Is ignorance an excuse? Perhaps at club level and with novice racers....


It does not exonerate you from failing to comply with the rules, but is on a lower plane than wilful cheating.
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