Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
Standard of Proof? |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 23456 11> |
Author | ||||||||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 2:52pm |
|||||||
See below:
Very necessary IMO especially as both boats were close enough at the time of the initial infringement which took place in the racing area. What took place after that (or did not take place after that) is not relevant to the actual informing of the boat. The other boat 'may' have just sailed off to build up boat speed and believe no penalty was required (it is plausable given the lack of information). As has been said we do not know the full details and none of us witnessed the incident so we are presuming things which are not necessarily correct. I believe that a PC would find this as a protest to be invalid as the word Protest was not used immediately and, as such, any such speculation as to what A did or did not do is irrelevant. If C witnessed and overhead A saying that they would do a penalty turn then it is down to C to hail protest and and bring this separately as well as potentially witnessing the other protest for the initial infringement. As Brass has said Rule 2 is a minefield and you have to make sure everything is done by the book otherwise it makes the situation even more distasteful than it already is.
|
||||||||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
It is a self-inflicted problem though. As people are unwilling to protest because of the possibility for conflict/bad feeling then there are those who play on this and take advantage by flagrantly disregarding the rules as they believe they will get away with it. If more people stood up and were counted on breaches of the rules then this problem would become less and less. Perhaps a revision to the rules where if a protest is found to be invalid then the PC can still review and find facts but NOT punish either party might be useful as it is often misunderstanding the rules that causes a lot of incidents. They can then speak to both parties (although this could become a double edged sword) I have been on both sides where an interpretation I was using, which I though to be incorrect, was actually wrong. A protest was bought and heard via arbitration rather than a full hearing and some of our local experts took the involved parties through the rules in question using the casebook and I now have a clear understanding of this particular facet of the rule.
|
||||||||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
But also, as we've seen in this thread, if a protest is thrown out for procedural reasons then that's a number of people who'll be thinking "why bother" and not protest next time... |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
OK, I'll explain myself again. A boat doesn't have to hail protest to make taking a two turn penalty valid. If you think you've infringed a rule, you can just hold up you hand and shout "OK, doing turns", and spin. Nowhere in 44 does it say that a call of protest is required to take a 2 turn penalty. The basic principle states that if a boat infringes, she should take a penalty.
The first time that all aspects
1) that there had been an initial infringement
2) that B had acknowleged that she had infringed, and was going to do turns
3) that she might not have actually done her turns
are known to all participants was ashore after racing. B knew 1 and 2, but not 3. C might not have known 1 and 2. To believe that A may have broken 2 (and the basic principle), you need to know all three facts. If the earliest that you know them is when you come ashore, then all you have to do is inform A at the first reasonable opportunity - iow when you're ashore. Without all three, it's far from obvious that there's been an infrigement.
If C was aware of 1 2 and 3, then she did need to shout protest and fly a flag.
|
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
r2d2 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 29 Sep 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 350 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
This may be a bit of an aside, but in the virtual SailX environment (where people were perhaps less bothered about cheating), it became necessary to penalise boats who called protest but then didn't actually proceed to file the protest - it made the whole situation better because everyone knew that they had a responsibility to see the protest process through properly |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
I agree Jim, but this is because of the confrontational nature of the way a protest should be initiated. The rules are trying to make it simple but this also makes it seem very confrontational. The thing that always gets people is the fact that Protest should be the first word out of their mouth. Perhaps this should be changed to say the word 'protest' must be used in the initial exchange. We all like to try and be fair about this and, more often than not, there is a little bit of discussion between 2 parties when and infringement takes place. So they could make something like this acceptable: Boat A: You infringed me at the last mark, please do your turns Boat B: No I don't feel I did infringe you Boat A: OK Protest That way the 'top level' guys can continue to just use the current method of just hailing protest and the 'less serious' among us have a way of informing without seeming to be confrontational. This would of course require submission to the ISAF (who are probably unaware of the issue as it is at grass roots level, they see plenty of protests from championships).
|
||||||||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
Went to a talk by Bryan Willis a couple of years ago. His view is that exactly that sort of interaction is fine, provided it happens quickly enough.
"Oh, come on!! Turns please!"
....silence...../or "What for? Didn't do anything (Guv)"
a few seconds
"OK, Protest"
I wouldn't have a problem with. But a few seconds has to be literally that.
|
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
What words did she use when she 'agreed to take a penalty'?
Please don't tell us that you want us to infer that this agreement was signified by her boat bearing away without any words?
This applies to every single boat that wants to see another boat penalised:
If a boat thinks tha another boat has broken a rule and wants the other boat to be penalised for breaking that rule then she needs to:
|
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
Correct as long as the boat who infringed clearly does turns and the infringed boat is happy with this. In this case it is implied there was some kind of exchange between the 2 parties.....
Difficult to call, but I would guess informing the infringing boat of your intention to protest at this point would be valid (as it is the first opportunity) and you would need to protest under rule 2 using a witness. You would have to word your form very carefully though and B would have to admit they acknowledged the initial infringement and intended to do turns. Had A hailed protest at the time of initial infringement it would have removed all doubt on the situation though and B would have known exactly what A was requiring of them. They could then protest the initial infringement and that B didn't do their turns rather than having to rely on a Rule 2....
|
||||||||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||||||||
![]() |
||||||||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||||||
Some PCs do though... There may be an ISAF case on this? If I get time I will take a look. Alternatively Brass (who is very knowledgeable on the casebook) may know of one?
|
||||||||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||||||||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 23456 11> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |