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Standard of Proof?

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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

I'm not sure how necessary a call of protest is.


See below:

61 PROTEST REQUIREMENTS
61.1 Informing the Protestee 
(a) A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the 
first reasonable opportunity. When her  protest concerns an  
incident in the racing area that she is involved in or sees, she 
shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the 
first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag 
until she is no longer racing.  However,
(1) if the other boat is beyond hailing distance, the protesting 
boat need not hail but she shall inform the other boat at 
the first reasonable opportunity; 
(2) if the hull length of the protesting boat is less than 6  
metres, she need not display a red flag; 
(3) if the incident results in damage or injury that is obvious 
to the boats involved and one of them intends to protest, 
the requirements of this rule do not apply to her, but she 
shall attempt to inform the other boat within the time 
limit of rule 61.3. 

Very necessary IMO especially as both boats were close enough at the time of the initial infringement which took place in the racing area. What took place after that (or did not take place after that) is not relevant to the actual informing of the boat. The other boat 'may' have just sailed off to build up boat speed and believe no penalty was required (it is plausable given the lack of information).

As has been said we do not know the full details and none of us witnessed the incident so we are presuming things which are not necessarily correct.

I believe that a PC would find this as a protest to be invalid as the word Protest was not used immediately and, as such, any such speculation as to what A did or did not do is irrelevant.

If C witnessed and overhead A saying that they would do a penalty turn then it is down to C to hail protest and and bring this separately as well as potentially witnessing the other protest for the initial infringement.

As Brass has said Rule 2 is a minefield and you have to make sure everything is done by the book otherwise it makes the situation even more distasteful than it already is.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by JimC

I worry about the whole throwing out of protests thing. It does seem to contradict the desire for the sport to be self policing.

As I posted in another topic:

People shouldn't be able to get away with rule breaches for legalistic reasons. In the fundamental rule it says that a boat that breaks a rule is required to take a penalty: it doesn't say that they should only take a penalty if another craft protests.

What there does need to be, if there is no swift flag or hail and the other competitor is genuinely unaware there was a rule breach or protest hail, is some kind of alternative penalty to DSQ available to the PC: something to put the penalised boat in the same sort of position they would have been in if they had seen the flag or heard the hail and taken an alternative penalty.

It is a self-inflicted problem though. As people are unwilling to protest because of the possibility for conflict/bad feeling then there are those who play on this and take advantage by flagrantly disregarding the rules as they believe they will get away with it.

If more people stood up and were counted on breaches of the rules then this problem would become less and less.

Perhaps a revision to the rules where if a protest is found to be invalid then the PC can still review and find facts but NOT punish either party might be useful as it is often misunderstanding the rules that causes a lot of incidents. They can then speak to both parties (although this could become a double edged sword)

I have been on both sides where an interpretation I was using, which I though to be incorrect, was actually wrong. A protest was bought and heard via arbitration rather than a full hearing and some of our local experts took the involved parties through the rules in question using the casebook and I now have a clear understanding of this particular facet of the rule.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by jeffers

It is a self-inflicted problem though. As people are unwilling to protest because of the possibility for conflict/bad feeling...

But also, as we've seen in this thread, if a protest is thrown out for procedural reasons then that's a number of people who'll be thinking "why bother" and not protest next time...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:15pm

OK, I'll explain myself again.

 
A boat doesn't have to hail protest to make taking a two turn penalty valid. If you think you've infringed a rule, you can just hold up you hand and shout "OK, doing turns", and spin. Nowhere in 44 does it say that a call of protest is required to take a 2 turn penalty. The basic principle states that if a boat infringes, she should take a penalty.

The first time that all aspects
 
1) that there had been an initial infringement
2) that B had acknowleged that she had infringed, and was going to do turns
3) that she might not have actually done her turns
 
are known to all participants was ashore after racing. B knew 1 and 2, but not 3. C might not have known 1 and 2. To believe that A may have broken 2 (and the basic principle), you need to know all three facts. If the earliest that you know them is when you come ashore, then all you have to do is inform A at the first reasonable opportunity - iow when you're ashore. Without all three, it's far from obvious that there's been an infrigement.
 
If C was aware of 1 2 and 3, then she did need to shout protest and fly a flag.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by JimC

I worry about the whole throwing out of protests thing. It does seem to contradict the desire for the sport to be self policing.

As I posted in another topic:

People shouldn't be able to get away with rule breaches for legalistic reasons. In the fundamental rule it says that a boat that breaks a rule is required to take a penalty: it doesn't say that they should only take a penalty if another craft protests.

What there does need to be, if there is no swift flag or hail and the other competitor is genuinely unaware there was a rule breach or protest hail, is some kind of alternative penalty to DSQ available to the PC: something to put the penalised boat in the same sort of position they would have been in if they had seen the flag or heard the hail and taken an alternative penalty.

It is a self-inflicted problem though. As people are unwilling to protest because of the possibility for conflict/bad feeling then there are those who play on this and take advantage by flagrantly disregarding the rules as they believe they will get away with it.

If more people stood up and were counted on breaches of the rules then this problem would become less and less.

Perhaps a revision to the rules where if a protest is found to be invalid then the PC can still review and find facts but NOT punish either party might be useful as it is often misunderstanding the rules that causes a lot of incidents. They can then speak to both parties (although this could become a double edged sword)

I have been on both sides where an interpretation I was using, which I though to be incorrect, was actually wrong. A protest was bought and heard via arbitration rather than a full hearing and some of our local experts took the involved parties through the rules in question using the casebook and I now have a clear understanding of this particular facet of the rule.

This may be a bit of an aside, but in the virtual SailX environment (where people were perhaps less bothered about cheating), it became necessary to penalise boats who called protest but then didn't actually proceed to file the protest - it made the whole situation better because everyone knew that they had a responsibility to see the protest process through properly
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by JimC


But also, as we've seen in this thread, if a protest is thrown out for procedural reasons then that's a number of people who'll be thinking "why bother" and not protest next time...

I agree Jim, but this is because of the confrontational nature of the way a protest should be initiated. The rules are trying to make it simple but this also makes it seem very confrontational.

The thing that always gets people is the fact that Protest should be the first word out of their mouth. Perhaps this should be changed to say the word 'protest' must be used in the initial exchange. We all like to try and be fair about this and, more often than not, there is a little bit of discussion between 2 parties when and infringement takes place.

So they could make something like this acceptable:

Boat A:

You infringed me at the last mark, please do your turns

Boat B:

No I don't feel I did infringe you

Boat A:

OK Protest

That way the 'top level' guys can continue to just use the current method of just hailing protest and the 'less serious' among us have a way of informing without seeming to be confrontational.

This would of course require submission to the ISAF (who are probably unaware of the issue as it is at grass roots level, they see plenty of protests from championships).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:38pm
Went to a talk by Bryan Willis a couple of years ago. His view is that exactly that sort of interaction is fine, provided it happens quickly enough.
 
"Oh, come on!! Turns please!"
 
....silence...../or "What for? Didn't do anything (Guv)"
 
a few seconds
 
"OK, Protest"
 
I wouldn't have a problem with. But a few seconds has to be literally that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by ohFFsake

...the alleged transgression of Rule 2 was the action of A in deceiving B into thinking she was going to take a penalty and then choosing not to do so as soon as B's back was turned. I see that as a fairly clear definition of not being in compliance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play. Is that reasonable?......

... She was challenged in the first instance by B and agreed to take a penalty.
What words did she use when she 'agreed to take a penalty'?
 
Please don't tell us that you want us to infer that this agreement was signified by her boat bearing away without any words?
 
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by ohFFsake

...the alleged transgression of Rule 2 was the action of A in deceiving B into thinking she was going to take a penalty and then choosing not to do so as soon as B's back was turned. I see that as a fairly clear definition of not being in compliance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play. Is that reasonable?......

...
Any of the witnesses could have protested but did not.
That is perhaps a fair comment. So C coming forward as a witness for B is not enough, he needs to formally protest A himself...?
 
This applies to every single boat that wants to see another boat penalised: 
 
If a boat thinks tha another boat has broken a rule and wants the other boat to be penalised for breaking that rule then she needs to:
  1. hail 'Protest' and conspucuously display a red flag (if she is over 6m) at the first reasonable opportunity for each after the incident in accordance with rule 61.1(a);
  2. If she is not satisfied that the other boat has taken a penalty in accordance with rule 44, then she needs to deliver a written protest, containing the required information within the required time in accordance with rules 61.2 and 61.3, then
  3. attend the scheduled protest hearing, presenting all necessary evidence and making sound persuasive arguments.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

OK, I'll explain myself again.

 
A boat doesn't have to hail protest to make taking a two turn penalty valid. If you think you've infringed a rule, you can just hold up you hand and shout "OK, doing turns", and spin. Nowhere in 44 does it say that a call of protest is required to take a 2 turn penalty. The basic principle states that if a boat infringes, she should take a penalty.

Correct as long as the boat who infringed clearly does turns and the infringed boat is happy with this. In this case it is implied there was some kind of exchange between the 2 parties.....

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

The first time that all aspects
 
1) that there had been an initial infringement
2) that B had acknowleged that she had infringed, and was going to do turns
3) that she might not have actually done her turns
 
are known to all participants was ashore after racing. B knew 1 and 2, but not 3. C might not have known 1 and 2. To believe that A may have broken 2 (and the basic principle), you need to know all three facts. If the earliest that you know them is when you come ashore, then all you have to do is inform A at the first reasonable opportunity - iow when you're ashore. Without all three, it's far from obvious that there's been an infrigement.
 
If C was aware of 1 2 and 3, then she did need to shout protest and fly a flag.

Difficult to call, but I would guess informing the infringing boat of your intention to protest at this point would be valid (as it is the first opportunity) and you would need to protest under rule 2 using a witness. You would have to word your form very carefully though and B would have to admit they acknowledged the initial infringement and intended to do turns.

Had A hailed protest at the time of initial infringement it would have removed all doubt on the situation though and B would have known exactly what A was requiring of them. They could then protest the initial infringement and that B didn't do their turns rather than having to rely on a Rule 2....
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 12 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Went to a talk by Bryan Willis a couple of years ago. His view is that exactly that sort of interaction is fine, provided it happens quickly enough.
 
"Oh, come on!! Turns please!"
 
....silence...../or "What for? Didn't do anything (Guv)"
 
a few seconds
 
"OK, Protest"
 
I wouldn't have a problem with. But a few seconds has to be literally that.

Some PCs do though...

There may be an ISAF case on this? If I get time I will take a look. Alternatively Brass (who is very knowledgeable on the casebook) may know of one?
Paul
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