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Sailing down the fleet
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing down the fleet
    Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 8:38am
I think it's odd to object to it in any circumstances.    The sport of sailing is defined only by the rules, and the rules allow it.  The idea of sailing is to finish the series with a lower number of points than your competitors.  

If you were the fastest upwind would you sail past the windward mark by 200m to even things up and give everyone a sporting chance?  Would you start 3 minutes later?  So why would you not sail someone down the fleet if that was the best way of beating them? To me the two are logically equivalent.
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 9:16am

On the other hand it's amazing how many things are considered dubious until the person who has been commenting feels the need to do it themselves. Then it mysteriously becomes 'different'...

(this isn't aimed at anyone in particular in this thread, just a general statement)
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 10:46am
I've had some quite glorious examples of that!  

Remember a laser qualifier at plymouth.  Was fairly light, and a massive bunch of boats was just in front of me coming into the leeward mark.  They all started to neatly line up behind one another to go around the buoy, in a row that stretched out a good 6-8 boats, turning so that I had an overlap on every single one as I entered the zone.

So what do you do? Well, I counted back 4 boats, ignoring the one that was currently going around to be safe, pointed at her and shouted "You're not in the zone yet, I've got room on you" and proceeded to position myself to round the mark on the inside.  Cue much hollering and knashing of teeth, swearing, "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" etc etc

Come the next leeward mark rounding I'm just in front of that pack, and what happens?  Very same boat comes flying in right at the mark shouting ROOM ROOM ROOM, collides with my transom, other boats etc, and completely ignores any communication from anyone. These days (now older and wiser) I'm surprised when stuff like that *doesn't* happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 8:59pm
It's a bit like sledging in cricket. I accept that it is part and parcel of the professional game. Indeed, I am all for it in a high stakes pro game. But I wouldn't be too keen on the ECB encouraging children to sledge in an U13 school game. Sport is meant to be a bit if fun, something to enjoy. Not something (at youth level) to win at all costs. There are far more important things to try and 'win' at IMHO.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Peaky

It's a bit like sledging in cricket. I accept that it is part and parcel of the professional game. Indeed, I am all for it in a high stakes pro game. But I wouldn't be too keen on the ECB encouraging children to sledge in an U13 school game. Sport is meant to be a bit if fun, something to enjoy. Not something (at youth level) to win at all costs. There are far more important things to try and 'win' at IMHO.
Racing in a series of races for a cumulative score is NOTHING like 'sledging' in cricket.
 
Sledging is a bloody blight on cricket, only tolerated because the marketing deparment loves it.
 
Sledging, that is speech intended to distract or disquiet an opponent is an obvious breach of sportsmanship and is absoloutely intolerable in sailing.
 
'Throwing' a match in cricket, for example so as to get a better draw in a final round, is, I believe against the laws of the game, which probably have some sort of 'must attempt to win at all times' provision.  If not, in cricket there are interpretations that that is the case.
 
There is no rule in sailing that obliges a boat to 'sail to win', and we have a specific interpretation that says that not sailing to win in a particular race is permissible if, relative to some series or selection process, it obtains an advantage.
 
What people are forgetting is that at any lower level than about Ben Ainslie, attempting to control a competitor for a whole race is an extraordinarily difficult undertaking, and probably carries much more risk than reward.  It's the sort of thing that the smartypants try on, then die wondering.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 10:56pm
Any competent team racer has the skills required to sail someone down the fleet.

It will be interesting to see what the rules writers come up with. They were getting very worked up about competing boats from same country "match racing" to gain advantage in their own selection procedure.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 12 at 10:59pm
It's only like sledging in that it's something you don't approve of!  Sledging is a means of intimidating or otherwise distracting a player (BTW 13 year olds were right up there with the Aussies for this sort of behaviour wen I played in House matches - and they hadn't learnt it on the TV, it's just what 13 year olds can be like!).  To take the cricketing analogy further, a batsman may not impede the fielder, and a bowler may not run on the wicket....those activities are expressly forbidden by the Laws of the Game, as well as being against the "spirit of cricket".

Sailing someone back is not only not forbidden by the RRS, but there is case law that makes it clear that it is a legitimate technique.

Someone who cheats at cricket by walking on the wicket, impeding the fielder or doctoring a ball ( and gets away with it) is "winning at all costs".  A youth sailor who uses a legitimate technique is not, "winning at all costs".

I'm not sure what else you can "win" at other than sport (or games).  The fun in sport can be derived from many things....when I sail I get many different rewards (and I would feel disappointed if I cheated to win, and equally disappointed if I didn't take the chances that came my way, including teh sail back).  Clearly a Feva sailor (or anyone else) good enough to put themselves in a position to do the sail back thing, has a degree of self-esteem tied up in their sport.  You clearly have a healthy separation between the two, but that doesn't make the inverse any less worthy.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 12:07am
Originally posted by gordon

Any competent team racer has the skills required to sail someone down the fleet.

It will be interesting to see what the rules writers come up with. They were getting very worked up about competing boats from same country "match racing" to gain advantage in their own selection procedure.
I would have thought that any competent team racer has the skills required to prevent herself being sailed down the fleet (by just one boat)?
 
Hasn't Q&A 2011-012 fixed it?  My understanding was that the problem was caused by somewhat over-restrictive wording in the previous version.  Can't the Q&A just be topped and tailed into a new case?
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 1:57pm
The whole medal race system at world level seems to encourage this, which must be the opposite of what was intended. To me, it makes the sport look terrible to outside eyes - the boat in first place sails the boat in 2nd to the back of the fleet in order to ensure he doesn't get enough points to beat him over all - never mind that they come last and 2nd to last in the "medal race". Yes, I can see that it is in the rules, and yes, I can see that from a racing point of view it makes perfect sense, and no, I've no idea how to phrase a rule that allows covering but has a limit on it.
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 2:07pm
the medal race idea is just wrong for the sport as a whole.
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