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L123456 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Jun 12 at 9:02am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Most materials development in sailing come from aerospace. 
 
aerospace ... don't you know they are morons too ... the only area of innovation worth any reference is windsurfing .... even if Chris249 has already debunked the claims made by GRF with FACTS ...
 
Lets face it, GRF has built an utter dog that he still trying to delude a few fanboys that it has legs ... he even believes it himself ... or does he and has he finally realised but is still playing games with some of you on here?
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 12 at 8:31am
Most materials development in sailing come from aerospace. 
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bferry View Drop Down
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Posts: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bferry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 12 at 8:01am
Originally posted by Caveman

Someone mentioned cats as the aswer to this impossible quest. What about those "Heath Robinson" Catapult cats with their inflatable hulls. http://www.catapultcats.com
 
I sniggering when I spotted a guy pumping up his hulls on the beach a few years ago. However, I was later amazed to see just how quick these little boats can go. They look quite easy to handle on the water and easy to transport. I imagine they would also be cheap to build.  
 
 
  
 
Heard these were fast cats but with a bow like that...they're f*@!g ugly in my opinion.


Edited by bferry - 06 Jun 12 at 8:02am
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:30pm
They're not morons, plenty of them cleverer than me, but, they just lack the experience of what is available in the world these days in other sports.

Edited by G.R.F. - 05 Jun 12 at 11:32pm
https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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L123456 View Drop Down
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Posts: 500 		Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

... but why not start the developent by looking at the best existing scows and learning from them, rather than being dismissive of them?
 
 … are you not aware that all that have gone before the great man are morons?
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:19pm
Being dismissive of others is sadly a stock in trade for us genii, when face it after how many years, you still haven't managed it yet with one hit I'm closer than anyone to date..
All I have to do is make it lighter and sort out the side tanks and I'm there.

Lets look at the check list
Fast - not yet it's too heavy and the sail is pants, easily curable, but still faster for me in its current state in a breeze than I could achieve in a 100 or similar single hander.
Easy - it's a doddle and only an idiot can tip it over
Suitable for lightwieghts - check
Easy to right - no, but a problem that can be solved.
Light weather - nothing that can't be solved by raising the mid section and stepping the hulls.

Too big? Nothing a diamond cutter can't solve.

I wouldn't write it off just yet.

what it needs is a bit more time and a bit more money chucked at it, two things I'm a tad short of right now, but hey there's no deadline here and maybe I might have changed my mind a bit about what I want now, since I've met lake world and that requires a slightly different design concept and a bunch more money I don't have right now to waste on scatter brain stuff like dinghies. 

Until I figure a better lighter way to build them than relying on the old hat that is the British Boat building scene, the factory I just visited in the states and the kit they have if applied to my problem could do amazing things, it's just time, application and to use stuff like this a market potential is required, meanwhile they'll go on building the next big thing which is wake and SUP boards in hollow carbon and bamboo laminate.
Now if I could have used them to build the twin it would have hit the 35 kgs I wanted, not the bloody close to 100 kgs I probably got from those old school builders that wouldn't even listen when I asked for it, eyes glazed over and said it aint possible when I know it is.

That is the difference and why I dismiss everything that is written in the traditional dinghy building world, I know it can be done yet listen to 'advice' and end up with the same ole same ole.. My Bad for going along with it, next time it'll be different.


Edited by G.R.F. - 05 Jun 12 at 11:23pm
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Noel D View Drop Down
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Posts: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noel D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by JimC

I think I'd want to see a lot more development of this one plus a couple more prototype hulls before I wrote the whole concept off as being intrinsically flawed.

I think you guys are somewhat naive about just how much time, effort and money are required to properly evaluate a competely new idea. I do wonder how many good ideas are stillborn because the evaluation isn't done properly. I remember trying what we would now call a mast stump out on my Cherub in the 1980s. It was a complete disaster - mast through the deck twice in three outings - and I abandoned it in disgust, but with new materials and competent engineering the Twelve footer sailors made their version of the concept work, and there are substantial numbers of boats sailing with what is essentially the same idea, independantly developed and done properly.

I am still not prepared to say I think whether GRFs is fundamentaly flawed or not basically because I still don't really understand it. And I wouldn't want to say whether its fundamentally impossible to achieve a better balance between speed and handling than we have now. One should not forget Clarke' first law: "1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

All very true. What got me about Grumpf's approach was that he was so dismissive of the lessons learned by others. A modern performance scow could be fantastic (and could be a much better option for fast dinghies than the current skiff model in some ways) and it could improve more from modern materials than earlier boats, but why not start the developent by looking at the best existing scows and learning from them, rather than being dismissive of them?
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:04pm
+1 especially the disregard for hard earned lessons in for example dinghy fit out.  Thus creating too many variables. 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think I'd want to see a lot more development of this one plus a couple more prototype hulls before I wrote the whole concept off as being intrinsically flawed.

I think you guys are somewhat naive about just how much time, effort and money are required to properly evaluate a competely new idea. I do wonder how many good ideas are stillborn because the evaluation isn't done properly. I remember trying what we would now call a mast stump out on my Cherub in the 1980s. It was a complete disaster - mast through the deck twice in three outings - and I abandoned it in disgust, but with new materials and competent engineering the Twelve footer sailors made their version of the concept work, and there are substantial numbers of boats sailing with what is essentially the same idea, independantly developed and done properly.

I am still not prepared to say I think whether GRFs is fundamentaly flawed or not basically because I still don't really understand it. And I wouldn't want to say whether its fundamentally impossible to achieve a better balance between speed and handling than we have now. One should not forget Clarke' first law: "1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

All very true. What got me about Grumpf's approach was that he was so dismissive of the lessons learned by others. A modern performance scow could be fantastic (and could be a much better option for fast dinghies than the current skiff model in some ways) and it could improve more from modern materials than earlier boats, but why not start the developent by looking at the best existing scows and learning from them, rather than being dismissive of them?
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Caveman View Drop Down
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Posts: 64 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 9:19pm
Someone mentioned cats as the aswer to this impossible quest. What about those "Heath Robinson" Catapult cats with their inflatable hulls. http://www.catapultcats.com
 
I sniggering when I spotted a guy pumping up his hulls on the beach a few years ago. However, I was later amazed to see just how quick these little boats can go. They look quite easy to handle on the water and easy to transport. I imagine they would also be cheap to build.  
 
 
  
Enthusiasm>Skill
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