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V Twin

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    Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 10:04am
The V Twin was not a fool's errand, and I still applaud GRF for it - but the expectations from it, neatly put in perspective by Chris249 were a fool's hope.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 10:57am
I think two-up in a breeze it is probably a quick bit of kit.
Yes I know it's supposed to be a single hander,
sticks in the light stuff etc etc etc...
Mileage in it yet I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atrocity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Pierre

I think two-up in a breeze it is probably a quick bit of kit.
Yes I know it's supposed to be a single hander,
sticks in the light stuff etc etc etc...
Mileage in it yet I believe.

Mileage as what?  A double hander that is quick in a breeze?  Well there are no shortage of those, International 14, 505, Alto (which I think he still owns), all manner of RS boats both trapeze and hiking and all of which will show the V Twin a clean pair of heels around a sailing course.

The design brief as supplied by GRF was simple, a fast singlehander which is easy to sail by a helm of around 70kg.  It was a fools errand from the start, outrageous  in dimension, wetted area and weight, therefore requiring a sail area of significant proportion to get it going and as a consequence unmanageable by one lightweight. Give it a manageable sail area and it never gets going.  

It has been interesting to follow and remarkable to see in the flesh, but as a ground breaking singlehanded sailboat design, a disaster.  Given the brief I don't see how it can be considered as anything else.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 12:25pm
Still don't understand why if he wanted a scow, he just didn't buy a scow. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 1:01pm
I think I'd want to see a lot more development of this one plus a couple more prototype hulls before I wrote the whole concept off as being intrinsically flawed.

I think you guys are somewhat naive about just how much time, effort and money are required to properly evaluate a competely new idea. I do wonder how many good ideas are stillborn because the evaluation isn't done properly. I remember trying what we would now call a mast stump out on my Cherub in the 1980s. It was a complete disaster - mast through the deck twice in three outings - and I abandoned it in disgust, but with new materials and competent engineering the Twelve footer sailors made their version of the concept work, and there are substantial numbers of boats sailing with what is essentially the same idea, independantly developed and done properly.

I am still not prepared to say I think whether GRFs is fundamentaly flawed or not basically because I still don't really understand it. And I wouldn't want to say whether its fundamentally impossible to achieve a better balance between speed and handling than we have now. One should not forget Clarke' first law: "1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 8:01pm
Well said Jim, I agree with you. The other thing is 'horses for courses'. Now GRF may not wish me well in my Solo career, but I wish him well. Let him play about with his Vtwinny thing and it could be a worthwhile effort in the end, if that is what he wishes to do. For my part the elderley Solo careered around the lake in 20mph gusts out of controll as I dropped the tiller and fell over, but it achieved my aim, I kept my knickers dry!

The other thing about young Fuller is that he provides us with entertainment and the oportunity to have a good old patronise when things fail to work out. Keep going lad some of us are behind you.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 9:19pm
Someone mentioned cats as the aswer to this impossible quest. What about those "Heath Robinson" Catapult cats with their inflatable hulls. http://www.catapultcats.com
 
I sniggering when I spotted a guy pumping up his hulls on the beach a few years ago. However, I was later amazed to see just how quick these little boats can go. They look quite easy to handle on the water and easy to transport. I imagine they would also be cheap to build.  
 
 
  
Enthusiasm>Skill
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think I'd want to see a lot more development of this one plus a couple more prototype hulls before I wrote the whole concept off as being intrinsically flawed.

I think you guys are somewhat naive about just how much time, effort and money are required to properly evaluate a competely new idea. I do wonder how many good ideas are stillborn because the evaluation isn't done properly. I remember trying what we would now call a mast stump out on my Cherub in the 1980s. It was a complete disaster - mast through the deck twice in three outings - and I abandoned it in disgust, but with new materials and competent engineering the Twelve footer sailors made their version of the concept work, and there are substantial numbers of boats sailing with what is essentially the same idea, independantly developed and done properly.

I am still not prepared to say I think whether GRFs is fundamentaly flawed or not basically because I still don't really understand it. And I wouldn't want to say whether its fundamentally impossible to achieve a better balance between speed and handling than we have now. One should not forget Clarke' first law: "1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

All very true. What got me about Grumpf's approach was that he was so dismissive of the lessons learned by others. A modern performance scow could be fantastic (and could be a much better option for fast dinghies than the current skiff model in some ways) and it could improve more from modern materials than earlier boats, but why not start the developent by looking at the best existing scows and learning from them, rather than being dismissive of them?




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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:04pm
+1 especially the disregard for hard earned lessons in for example dinghy fit out.  Thus creating too many variables. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noel D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 12 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by JimC

I think I'd want to see a lot more development of this one plus a couple more prototype hulls before I wrote the whole concept off as being intrinsically flawed.

I think you guys are somewhat naive about just how much time, effort and money are required to properly evaluate a competely new idea. I do wonder how many good ideas are stillborn because the evaluation isn't done properly. I remember trying what we would now call a mast stump out on my Cherub in the 1980s. It was a complete disaster - mast through the deck twice in three outings - and I abandoned it in disgust, but with new materials and competent engineering the Twelve footer sailors made their version of the concept work, and there are substantial numbers of boats sailing with what is essentially the same idea, independantly developed and done properly.

I am still not prepared to say I think whether GRFs is fundamentaly flawed or not basically because I still don't really understand it. And I wouldn't want to say whether its fundamentally impossible to achieve a better balance between speed and handling than we have now. One should not forget Clarke' first law: "1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

All very true. What got me about Grumpf's approach was that he was so dismissive of the lessons learned by others. A modern performance scow could be fantastic (and could be a much better option for fast dinghies than the current skiff model in some ways) and it could improve more from modern materials than earlier boats, but why not start the developent by looking at the best existing scows and learning from them, rather than being dismissive of them?




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