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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 May 12 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Chris 249


..." My books on bike design indicates that the mountain bike marked started to slump within a year or two of dual suspension and discs hitting the mass market. So where is the proof that the increase in MTB technology has actually made it more popular?.....


I think this is an example of the inevitable falling off in popularity of any sport/pastime after a period of very high participation and fashion status.
I think it applies to dinghy sailing in the 60's, boards in the late 80's/90's and mountain bikes sometime last decade.

Once these sports are no longer the latest fashion, they fall back to their core support and reach a level based on their merits.
Of course as popularity drops off, manufacturers have to try harder to flog stuff, so more gimmicks get included, but the development of the products proceeds in the same time frame as the fashion is wearing itself out. It does not make the development the cause of the demise.
I think if we could have sold Vareos or Visions to the Mirror buyers in the 60's , it would have been a great success.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 1:00pm
There's certainly a pattern like that, RS. There could also be other factors (eg people getting into the industry for the lifestyle and then deciding after a few years that they need to get out into a "real" job, therefore causing local shops etc to close down). But even if increasing complexity is not the problem, there seems to be evidence that it is not a cure.

On the other hand, there does seem to be a very strong and recurring pattern where a boom sport is harmed as products become more complex and aimed more at the existing "experts", instead of being the simple beginner-friendly products that created the original boom. This pattern, IMHO, is too strong and common to be simply a coincidence. Some people like sit-on-top kayak and kite promoters are quite explicit about the fact that windsurfing killed itself by becoming too focused on experts, for example.

IMHO the further evidence is that the cause of a major boom in an existing sport can be traced to the arrival of a new style of cheap, accessible, simple gear aimed at beginners. This happened in dinghies and more recently in kayaks and (I think) road bikes. There had been racing dinghies for decades but there was no dinghy boom until a range of cheaper, simpler, slower boats for beginners arrived in the form of craft like GPs, Herons, Vauriens, US Lightnings. It was those boats, as we know, that created the boom; that is very easy to trace from the numbers and from what those who created them said about their motives. 

Similarly, kayaks had been around for years but the '80s boom only arrived with the promotion of cheaper, simpler plastic boats that ironically sometimes used gear and staff left over from windsurfer builders moving up market (and down the tube).

FWIW I think dinghy sailing could still be a great success if we could promote it as being a sport of Vareos and Visions rather than 9ers etc (although the latter are fantastic).  What really gets me is that the proponents of the "make it faster and they will come" school produce basically zero evidence to back up their claim and ignore a lot of evidence that proves it's not true, but they still manage to throw a fair bit of aggro around.


Edited by Chris 249 - 27 May 12 at 1:07pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Fair points- but the weight game for elite sporting products has changed since Torbole.   I guess I'm saying the 49er hull seems to have stood the test of time- relative to the pace of technology-change in other aspects of our lives.  

People have known about carbon for ages - well before the trials. IIRC from the dinghy show, Rodney P was playing with carbon and honeycomb in his FDs. Wikipedia tells us that honeycomb sandwich construction was proposed in 1915. Tecnara built Tag Heuer in 1992, just to prove that the boatshop floor isn't a labatory... Smile

Downside of carbon is the cost. 

I'm not having a go at you, but as far as I know in many equipment sports the "weight game" restrictions have stayed pretty much the same. Do you know of many in which the weights have dropped much?

BTW the earliest carbon boat I can find evidence was a Parker Contender, from '68 IIRC. There was a fairly detailed article about it at the time.

I was simply pointing out that the 49er hull wasn't cutting edge tech when it came out (and righly so, IMHO). 
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 FWIW I think dinghy sailing could still be a great success 

Perhaps what we need is  a down to earth organisation focussing on just that, promoting our sport
of sailing as something for all, regardless of age, wealth or anything else, and aimed at the grassroots and majority. Oh, hang on, are n't we supposed to have one of those? But what's that trendy phase? Ah, "not fit for purpose", that's it.

We are getting rather off topic mind, cos GRF and the vtwin ain't the solution
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Posts: 296 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 5:30pm
It's all about increasing participation and getting more people into the sport. More people = more money = more investment into the sport = more innovation. I think that the RYA are failing on this and it's falling more and more to clubs to increase participation at grass roots. The dominant factor of the RYA at the moment in the sailing front is about winning medals. That should only be one small part. Our club is doing well at the moment, but it's on it's own merits. Any idea how do we grab matey off the street and make him or her want to sail? Don't think how light a boat is will make a difference. A good quality accessible product will.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 7:20pm
Is there really an absence of accessible dinghies?
All the old designs are great value second hand.
A topper was a lot of money when I was that age, you can get one on the water pretty cheaply now.
The roto-moulds are good value for new kit, and deliver a lot of mileage to sailing schools etc.

The only thing I can see wrong is people's attitude to learning to sail (and race) in a tatty old boat, both from the participants and other competitors. When we spend thousands on a new boat, we are putting a barrier, at least psychologically, in front of those who are not committed enough, or able,  to spend as much.
Maybe age related PY's might help.
Maybe magazine that wrote abote people getting out there and improving with old boats. Instead of promoting the latest all the time.
Maybe class associations making more effort to encompass the budget racer.

In sailing, simple beginner boats like Teras have not disappeared from the market, the way simple mountain bikes did, they presumably would do if nobody ever bought a new one. But getting people into racing is not just about a boat, it's about a whole package of club, coaching, insurance costs, etc.
It's not an easy sport to dabble in, it's a big commitment to take part.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by RS400atC



The only thing I can see wrong is people's attitude to learning to sail (and race) in a tatty old boat, both from the participants and other competitors. When we spend thousands on a new boat, we are putting a barrier, at least psychologically, in front of those who are not committed enough, or able,  to spend as much.
Maybe age related PY's might help.
Maybe magazine that wrote abote people getting out there and improving with old boats. Instead of promoting the latest all the time.
Maybe class associations making more effort to encompass the budget racer.




We use age and state of tune handicaps at cvrda events, and they work very well, but then the point of the association is to promote the sailing of old and knackered boats, as well as beautifully respored classics. However, I'm not totally convinced this should happen in mainstream racing. A better way is what some enlightened CA's do, which is to create a classic fleet. Some classes have been more successful than others. I'm not sure what the ideal way of clubs coping with it during handicap racing is, really. Maybe a classic handicap fleet with results extrapolated from the main results? But some classes get outdated rather sooner than others, so who decides what a classic is?
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 8:34pm
yes. we had two sorts of phantom racing today - an old single floor woodie and an epoxy lightweight thing.  Luckily the club chooses to give the older phantom a more lenient py than the newer one.  But we also had an all singing dancing miracle, alongside a much older one being raced for the first time by a father and son combo.  They both used the same py, which can't be right.

29 boats in the handicap fleet.  Nightmare.
the same, but different...

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 12 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Fair points- but the weight game for elite sporting products has changed since Torbole.   I guess I'm saying the 49er hull seems to have stood the test of time- relative to the pace of technology-change in other aspects of our lives.  

People have known about carbon for ages - well before the trials. IIRC from the dinghy show, Rodney P was playing with carbon and honeycomb in his FDs. Wikipedia tells us that honeycomb sandwich construction was proposed in 1915. Tecnara built Tag Heuer in 1992, just to prove that the boatshop floor isn't a labatory... Smile

Downside of carbon is the cost. 

I'm not having a go at you, but as far as I know in many equipment sports the "weight game" restrictions have stayed pretty much the same. Do you know of many in which the weights have dropped much?

BTW the earliest carbon boat I can find evidence was a Parker Contender, from '68 IIRC. There was a fairly detailed article about it at the time.

I was simply pointing out that the 49er hull wasn't cutting edge tech when it came out (and righly so, IMHO). 

Sorry PE, I shouldn't have included your post in my reply, as my Q was aimed at Pondmonkey.

Completely agree about the 9er; Julian had been racing against and on autoclaved pre-preg carbon/Nomex boats for a decade or so at the time he spec'd the 9er and as you say, it wasn't leading and for good reasons.
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 12 at 6:11pm
The thing about the 9er is that itīll go fast over a large wind range without having to change the rig. It also has a fairly linear drag curve (Non-S), so where most of its contempory rivals in the selection for the olympic HP boat were going "Nod and Squat" in between displacement and planing modes of sailing, the 9er was just continuing on its journey with no disadvantageous and abrupt changes in speed and/or sheet loading... Just love it. Also, Frank was there, backing Julian up to the hilt... Great man and sorely missed.
Pass the skiff, man!
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