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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cirrus Icon Development
    Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 3:42pm
I'm sure that you will get it right whichever you go for Mike and I hope it works out well for the class and that they don't try to rip you off. Of course as pointed I suppose if there is only one sail maker the class can threaten to change service provider if the cost gets too high and hopefully keep it down. 
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by blaze720

 
On the subject of single source / 'One-design' sails.  You can always get cheaper if you liberalise supply completely ... or they might be much more pricey. 

   

I heard a rumour at the the Steve Nics of a 3DL North Solo sail there costs upwards of 1500 quid - it did look like a nice sail, but still.
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 4:02pm
Neptune

The 3DL are very nice indeed - I have no idea what an Icon set would cost but that is not the plan.... We are strictly keeping to the cost-effectiveness plan whatever.

This still produces a very good and effective speciifcation at a very affordable price.  We are NOT currently planning to alter theIcon  'offer' price on the website even if some late equipment changes are confirmed.

Mike L.
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 4:13pm
It was more a comment about having open sail makers not necessarily driving down the cost - 3DL is overkill on a dinghy IMO.  Bonkers price though for an 8m2 sail.
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 4:21pm
3DL... Have things moved on from the days of the nick name 3 Days Life?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 4:22pm
I don't think I've ever heard of a situation where open sailmakers have reduced costs in practice, but I'm happy to be corrected.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 4:44pm
Does a class association enforcing a one sail manufacturer fall foul of the EU Anti-competition laws?

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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 5:32pm
Does a class association enforcing a one sail manufacturer fall foul of the EU Anti-competition laws?

Not 100% on this one BUT it is not a simple monopoly supplier situation (as envisaged in EU provisions) as there are abundant alternative classes available I would have thought.  I'm pretty sure the Laser as an example has also  explored this possible path / discussion frequently.  I'd guess in practice it would be similar to a 'single source' hull situation / argument.

The dinghy market has loads of choice -  1) 'strict' one-design / single source (call them SMOD if you like) 2) 'Liberal' one design 3)  Development within rules 4) developemnt within simpler 'Box' framework rules.  .. and numerous examples in each category.

Something for everyone there.  But if it were hypothetically to apply to sails on SMODs and 'one-designs' why not hulls as well ? Playing devils advocate briefly could I simply start making 'within rules' epoxy Phantoms for example citing EU provisions ?   

Come along - there must be a few 'law-snakes' amongst you out there !  Share your knowledge (oh yes - for free please)

Mike L.
     
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timeintheboat View Drop Down
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Posts: 615 		Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 6:33pm
If you go open on the sails some one has got measure 'um - an overhead for the CA when everything else is OD. If the measurements are not easily defined (and does that include the batten profile?) That means variation - 'flat/medium cuts' etc. If they are complex it makes it a pain to measure:

Note sure the multiple manufactures is sufficient to drive down prices c.f. Solo.

It's a tricky one but some classes seem to have got it about right through different approaches: Firefly, Albacore and Lark are ones that spring to mind and I am sure there are others.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 12 at 7:31pm
timeintheboat

Exactly -  could not have put it better myself. 

Icon is a SMOD and sails will be / are single source for many reasons including the ones you cite but it does share many of the advantages.  Another benefit is nobody is left wondering whether they have got the 'best' out there after an 'iffy' days racing - we've all been there ;-) ......  Plus any knowledge learned is applicable to all ... and hopefully shared.

Mike L.
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