Casualty management |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 17 Jan 12 at 7:26am |
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The problem is that unless you have a trained paramedic in each 'safety' boat you are never going to be able to cover all possibilities.
Spine and neck injuries are a possibilites but give that (most) dinghy crashes are low speed and most people crewing safety boats at sailing clubs are volunteers you have to give them an overview of the most likely situations which are drowning and hypothermia.
At the end of the day you and only do what you can do at any given incident. Regretably sometimes this may not be enough (this from a former first aider who had someone die on them from a heart attack). The main priority is to get the casualty out of the water and administer first aid and get them ashore as quickly and safely as possible. At that point the professionals can take over.
No doubt there can be lessons learnt from this incident not least of which is observation is key when sailing on a crowded race course and being aware of potential incidents (and giving additonal requirements to hail may help).
At large events such as this one then it may be practical to have at leat 1 safety boat crewed with a paramedic, at grass roots level this is just not possible.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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zippyRN ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 437 |
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that's odd given pool lifeguards with the NPLQ and St John Ambulance 'Advanced First Aiders ( under the 2011/12 skill sets)' are taught casualty handling for the patient with a suspected spinal injury based on mechanism of injury . ditto for none Paramedic ambulance staff including the voluntary sector crews as well as technicans and assistant grades in the NHS, Some of whom will be using the JRCALC selective immobilisation guidelines as well. have we got any RNLI personnel or Mountain rescue types who could let us know what is taught at a basic level and for designated casualty care pers ?
Volunteer does not have to mean incompetent or undertrained , would you be quite so forgiving of volunteer Race Officer who couldn't do a general recall ?
You don't need a Paramedic to be able to provide adequate casualty care ... also a safety boat is a poor platform to perform actual 'Paramedic' ( or other Healthcare professional only ) interventions vs life saving first aid intereventions and safely packaging someone for transfer to shore/ a larger boat / rescue helicopter where you can provide advanced life support care. Edited by zippyRN - 17 Jan 12 at 2:16pm |
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ASok ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Sep 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 739 |
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I'm not sure why you have posted any of these references. I know this is a 'quick and dirty' review, but I don't believe they show any credible evidence of risk to spines in this sport. The reports reference that head injuries account for between 22-35% depending on the reference used and those references do not take into account degrees of injury. The statistics could include everything from a little bump to a great whack, mid-gybe.
I have faith that the RYA has people well versed in researching this topic. If it was a significant issue then the RYA as a governing body would be reviewing training and issuing new guidance. As people have noted above, they haven't.
The main issue here is ensuring that clubs put two in the safety boats. Thats a basic step and hard enough to achieve for some, without adding additional responsibility to the mix.
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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The difference is Pool Lifeguards are paid and employed specifically to be responsbile for safety. MOST sailing clubs are run by VOLUNTEEERS who give up their free time.
Also MOST sailing clubs would fold should there suddenly become a requirement for safety boat crews to hold an advanced first aid certificate (which I seem to recall is a 5 day+ course) partly on cost and partly because I don;t know many people who would want to do that.
It is all about getting the casualty to safety so the professionals can do their job, this incluides getting them out of the water. I would not like to see a spinal board being used in rough conditions. Even at my local club (which is inland) the safety boats rock about quite a lot.
Given the option of pulling someone out of that water and saving their life from certain death over leaving them in the water to die because they 'might' have a spinal injury which 'might' be aggravated by my actions I know which option I would take every time.
Perhaps if you have serious concerns you should speak to the RYA, I know they have a lot of advice and a good legal team who will be able to assist if required.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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zippyRN ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 437 |
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SOME pool lifeguards are paid staff , i also note you have conveniently skirted the issues of the other volunteers mentioned in my previous posts
would they ? the same arguments against developing standards have been trotted out elsewhere , including the excuses that because a service is provided by volunteers it shouldn't have to meet any kinds of standard
I'd much rather see someone safely packaged on an extrication board than dragged into the bottom of a safety boat in an uncoordinated fashion
ah the excuse of lay person necessity rather than of having pride in delivering service do not think being a volunteer or an organisation being a not for profit will prevent individuals or the organisation being prosecuted. Interestingly the landmark case in this respect involves a rescue boat ... operated by St John rather than a sailing club |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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zippyRN, you and I are clearly not going to agree on this. Our sport is self regulalted and, on the whole, well managed with very few serious incidents. To expect what you are expecting of people who give up their free time to participate and help run the sport is unreasonable and would sound the death knell for many clubs in the UK.
That is my opinion and my final wording on the matter.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Over zealous application of a specialist area, undestandly due to exposure to the consequence of spinal injuries.
Lifeguards need training. People break their necks and backs diving into pools every year. In thirty years of sailing I have not heard of a single spinal injury, there is no evidence in them in the water related accident stuff, and I have not even seen anything in the reporting of the incident that sparked this thread to link it. More pertinent: I have twice been involved in CPR in a rescue situation. Once I gave it in the water. I'm not sure it was needed, and I'm not sure it was effective: it's near impossible in even the most benign conditions. But the guy coughed up the water and was OK. In the second case it was a hard stint in the rescue boat. No way it could have been done in the water. It's all about the priorities. In my professional life I deal with risk management. It's about probability against consequence then mitigation. No matter what the serious of the consequence if the probability is nil or next to it then there is no need to treat the risk. But I have seen senior practitioners pick up on threads like this and take actions which diverted resources and actually increased risk to life elsewhere. So forgive me if I seem a little robust but this touches a nerve, and frankly, in comments like "lay person necissity" offends. |
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Buzz ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 14 Jun 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
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We sail on the sea and our guidance is that in the event of a serious injury we would call the Coastguard. The Inshore Lifeboat carries a spinal board and the crews are all trained in its use. I have never seen such an injury during sailing but have experienced it with a waterskier being hit by another ski boat and one of the club safety boats being asked to assisst.
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zippyRN ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 437 |
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as for it'll never happen we've got a girl anaesthetisted in an Australian ICU after a head injury that required Neurosurgery ... while she's still anaesthetised we don't know the full consequences of her injury, every textbook on emergency care will tell you that someone who is knocked out through head trauma has a presumptive spinal injury until proven otherwise , this cannot be ruled out by imaging alone , although stability of the spine can be determined as such. there's also Herb Meyer who sustained a C5/6 injury while sailing , ok Yacht rather than small boat ... also what aobut someone who falls from a dock or pontoon into the water and sustains a neck injury? while it's not directly as a result of going sailing ...
and what are your casualty care credentials ? are you involved in emergency care as a none incidental activity , whether professional or paid ...?
it is deemed as such I believe the RLSS still teach it for pool work but only once to the side ( obviously in a wave pool with a 'beach' you just tow then drag the casualty until they are 'landed' )
exactly and unfortunately unless a rescue boat has a clear , flat deck area where you can lay your patient to perform CPR you will not be able to perform effective CPR ( see debate in the Michael Jackson case over whether the CPR being done on the bed by Dr. Murray and Jackson's staff was effective vs the Ambulance crew moving him to the floor and then to their ambulance trolley which provides a hard surface )
that is simply not the case especially when a 9 figure Dollar / Euro or very large 8 figure GBP payout is at stake - 8 million GBP seems to be a fairly common payout for those with high tetraplegia or enduring head injuries requiring 24 hour care post incident and the legal eagles say it;s only a matter of time before there's a 10 million GBP payout ... how much public liability insurance does the average club carry ?
so tell me how does ensuring that rescue boats have a two person crew and that people have an awareness of issues and access to equipment increase the risk in other ways ? kit wise you are talking about an investment of a few hundred pounds and that's assuming you can't negotiate access to existing stocks of equipment or find funding for it ... providing this training to not for profit / charity clubs would count as a charitable purpose for the likes of SJA , the RLSS or the Red Cross of course assuming that we can't find faculty from within the sailing community itself - how many health professionals, lifeboat and Coastguard personnel , firefighters etc sail or have links with the sailing community ? when people start talking about putting 'Paramedics' on rescue boats to deliver casualty care that first aiders and firefighters do it's obvious there is an understanding gap. Edited by zippyRN - 18 Jan 12 at 3:01pm |
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zippyRN ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 437 |
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