Handicap racing now pointless?

Er Jon

Software engineer probably comes under my job for the past 20 years or so  In the past I have done  software engineering for spacecraft missions (where it gets sort of important not to make a mistake ;-)) and now spend much of my time on supercomputer applications.  You are missing the point - the number crunching algorithm is pretty trivial and developing a suitable system not a big task. Sorting out the VERY messy data that comes out of most club results so that you get a high quality data set and trying to come up with schemes for handling CSF adjustments when you are struggling to keep sample sizes large enough is the tricky bit. 

As I said - as more clubs start to properly organise their results into longer term databases then this all becomes a lot easier.  I could give you amost 10000 data points out of database tomorrow - for you to try and make sense of that to put into a PY algorithm to get useful results out is going to take you a lot of work.


BTW - you are sooo wrong about the SJ process.  Several very knowledgeable people spent a lot of their volunteer time number crunching 10's of thousands of data points from multiple club systems to come up with the numbers they have. 


Edited by marke - 11 Jan 12 at 4:34pm

Originally posted by Jon711 And no posts from the RYA PY people, maybe they need an out spoken northern, living in the south, a bit like myself? Jon

Jon et al,

Perhaps there has been no response from the two guys in RYA technical as they are currently hugely busy sifting and sorting through the (hundreds of) thousands of returns from all clubs in the country and compiling them all into one document which will be sent to the members of the PYAG (Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group) of which I am a member as well as Mark E above.

I havent replied as I am currently abroad and this is the first time I have looked at a computer in about a week. Apologies for that.

As James has said earlier in this thread the PY system is for the use of sailing clubs, and without them would not exist. A PN is given to a class based on all returns for that class from the previous three years. Whether a PN is Primary, Secondary, Recorded or Expermiental is based upon the number of returns. The splits arent set as an exact number and will float slightly each year.

Everyone on the PYAG is a (hopefully) unbiased volunteer and keen sailor and I'd like to think we have our fingers on the pulse, we aren't all just locked up in a cupboard for the rest of the year not seeing what goes on in dinghy world. I have been doing as many of the big handicap events as I can get to so generally know pretty much whats going on numbers wise out on the water, as do others.

I've seen the thread on the Icons/blazes numbers at the SJ series and am waiting with interest to see what and how many club returns will be available nationally for both classes and what numbers they suggest.

FWIW I am also involved in the organisation of the Draycote Dash and as such have given all of Draycotes handicap returns to Andrew Craig from Queen Mary who has crunched all of the numbers. I wasnt involved in that process at all but applaud what he has done. For information I believe results from previous GGP, TT, SN Draycote Dash were combined with club results from all of these clubs as well as Chew and put in the melting pot to come up with the SJ adjustments. I have to also admit to being sceptical about some numbers but as Steve B alluded to in another thread the spread of boats across the first say 10 in each event/fleet at the GGP has been quite well spread has it not? Also I should add, I believe numbers from most of the big events do get included in their respective club returns to the RYA but because of the yearly RYA PY return cut off dates they are usually a year behind. Of course we can't use data from the Bloody Mary as its a pursuit race.

We all know that clubs should be adjusting if using the PY system properly, but possibly more than many I am fully aware of the issues of trying to convince a sailing committee that that is what they should be doing. Hopefully the RYA and PYAG will have some developments available soon to aid in this area and make the numbers slightly more accessible. I doubt we will be making the digests (the bible as far as the PYAG go as this is the document that has all returns in) available publically, but I have never withheld information within reason when asked.

Have all of you guys that have been asking questions actually takken the time to email the right people at RYA tech. dept or is the bigger issue just with the SJ numbers?

I hope that clears a few things up, and if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask though am not back in UK untiil Sunday and may not get another chance to reply until next week.

Chris

edit to add Jon what do you think was soo wrong? The blaze number at the GGP or the national numbers?


Edited by chrisg - 11 Jan 12 at 5:37pm

Maybe those on here who feel the handicapping system is totally broken should organize a big open meeting, get loads of different boats along, and start a new system of your own, based on what you "know" to be right?

I think this is all a bit OTT, but then I suppose that makes for good forum reading. Personally, I really enjoyed the BM and hope all the organisers, helpers, handicappers and sailors do not think I am ungrateful.

I fully support the Great Lakes lot for adjusting the numbers and actually think a few beards looking at numbers and then sticking their fingers in the air as a sanity check is as good a method as any. My only (good humoured, not whingeing) suprise was that my handicap was adjusted mid series without even having done the first race. But, as you say, 10 points is neither here nor there in reality.

I agree the 4 digit system offers false hope. The RYA has been very laissez-faire about club racing in the past, which of course is generally a good thing, but they do have a responsibility to us grass roots sailors. It's good to see a committed group tackling the PY system, let's hope the computerised returns reduce some of the inertia in the system!

Originally posted by marke In the past I have done  software engineering for spacecraft missions (where it gets sort of important not to make a mistake.....

 
I used to think things were sooo technical...until I mistakenly reversed a layout for the loading of a 747 while I was a Weight & Balance Agent for an airline. I realised my mistake just as it was taxiing for take-off and remember holding my breath as it took off - perfectly normally. It was then that I realised that there must surely be an 'idiot element' built in.....at least I hope that's why it flew...

Originally posted by RS400atC The only alternative to PY is some sort of formula like yachts use in IRC, where the sail area, weight, sail carrying power and hull length are used to calculate what the performance should be if all hull designs were equal. that might be interesting, but it would promote very different designs, rendering a lot of boats obsolete.

That sounds ideal to me. Strikes me that designers will only produce what they can sell, so what would be the problem with that?