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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

'dogs abuse'


I don't see any, just a discussion.

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by Ruscoe

'dogs abuse'


I don't see any, just a discussion.

 
Bit of a miss-quote there jack at least quote the whole post to put the 'Coin a phrase' into context...However Its a fairly heated discussion and to quote from the GGP thread which i think is in context:
 
Originally posted by Jon711

Don't think I'll bother then 1026 for a Blaze!!! They are off their trolley - I was never going to be competitive, but a level playing field, a realistic playing field, and some good old common sense would be good. Those figures are bonkers!!

Jon
 

And i f you read my post you will see i think its justified, but it highlights the problems clubs face every year by trying to adjust the PY system, the murmurings on this forum are no different to the heated debates by the blub bars...There needs to be a support network, the get out of jail card 'Clubs should adjust numbers for local conditions' just doesn't wash the volunteers in the sailing committees need some support from the RYA (I believe anyway)



Edited by Ruscoe - 11 Jan 12 at 12:51pm

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:12pm
I reckon it probably takes an hour to put together a half sensible reply to a query. Then that probably half of those will result in a second query because the recipient doesn't like the answer. Now multiply that by a hundred classes. How much volunteer time are we talking about?

And how much volunteer time do you suppose a club that is almost certainly already flat out making sure the event happens at all has got to spare?

If I were the Great Lakes people, after the unacceptable abuse on this forum (as highlighted in the quote above) I would not be publishing a number or accepting entries from the B**** class at all next year.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by rogue

It's a bit arrogant to say you're a better sailor than someone who can consistently beat you week in, week out on handicap racing...
 
Not arrogant at all it is fact that someone who is a mediocre sailor in 1 class can jump in to another class and be flattered by the boats performance.
 
We had a guy in our Laser fleet, very similar build to myself who switched classes and was then consistently beating all the Laser sailors he could not beat before on handicap.
 
To prove a point I borrowed a boat from said class from a very kind other sailor and went and cleaned up in a couple of races. It was surpising how easy it was to make the boat go fast with very little input (quite unrewarding I found).
 
Just my 2p and experience of course...


Edited by jeffers - 11 Jan 12 at 1:16pm
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:30pm

Quote .... "New class handicaps are recommended by the manufacturer or class association and it is in their interest to set a lenient handicap which gets the class noticed through results"

Any reasonable competitor will accept /agree with the need to 'pull' the handicaps of 'unknown' and 'new' classes.  The inference of the above does not however foster the best of good will and imho is behind the questioning , both reasoned and  knee-jerk in character, that is now floating around (call it whinging if you must !).  Personally I think adjustment as advanced by the Sailjuice initiative is generally well meant and useful .. but communication and presentation could have been a bit more inclusive and fostered active collaboration - we are all involved in  the same sport. 

New class associations and the manufacturers behind them have been damned whichever way they suggest initial figures over the years and new CA's and the 'one-off' enthusiasts, I would argue ,should be involved in a new more 'inclusive' approach.  All anybody wants is to establish, as quickly as possible, workable numbers that are proven and developed from as large a sample as possible. 

Surely a way can be developed that involves a tad of independent assessment so 'we' (those with apparent vested interest) do not get pilloried whenever we ask straightforward questions like 'how did you get to that figure ?’  I have entered events with new developments and been given such a wide range of figures (eg Halo .. from 925 to 1035) that of course questions will be asked – ‘tis but human to do so ... 

Could I therefore suggest that new classes are made available for a period of time to a couple of  recognised and independent helms recognized  by RYA technical  who could act assessor(s) and who produce an initial figure after testing for themselves.  ‘Their’ numbers are then published and used for the first year or so in some way under RYA technical supervision  - allowing a much wider spread of data to be established and certainty for all.   HOWEVER even when given a 'position' based on this figure when racing in handicap events the results of the ‘new’ are recorded separately to classes with an already established and proven (as far as any are !)  their 'position' does not make any difference to the results of others behind them.

Mike L. 



Edited by blaze720 - 11 Jan 12 at 1:33pm
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:41pm
Can I point out about my "stick a finger in the air" comment, if the finger in question has knowledge behind it, isn't a bad way of finding a trial number? However, if someone sticks a finger in the air and gets a number, then takes a few off for safety (fair enough) and then someone else sees the number, and takes a few more off, things do start to get rather a long way from where they started.

Someone earlier also mentioned handicapping related to the state of the boat, for a truly egalitarian handicapping system... At the CVRDA we have been doing this for years. As the point of the organization is to encourage classic boats with original kit to come out to sail, we need a system which gives old gear an advantage over new. We have been increasing the advantage slowly over the years, and I think still have a ways to go before we have made the playing field level - 60 year old cotton sails really are very slow compared to even 25 rear old dacron ones, let alone a new set!

However, not sure this would translate well into mainstream racing...
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:42pm
Good positive suggestions Mike.
 
Possibly a bit difficult to marry use of 'recognised helms' with the average performance of the boat as represented by the PY - but I accept this is a minor quibble
 
More important things that would help are that:
 
1) there should be a set minimum amount of data before the RYA publishes an EN for a new class.
 
2) any data used to produce an EN for a new class should be fully published by the RYA at the time the EN is published, together with any relevant notes e.g. regarding the types of conditions that the data were collected from
 


Edited by r2d2 - 11 Jan 12 at 1:44pm
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Posts: 465 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:54pm
Jim, to an extent I see your point, but, I think we are all aware that there are bandit PY boats out there. I do not believe the Blaze is one of them. We have some very good sailors in our fleet, and I know I have done well, if I come mid fleet. All we are asking for is transparency, when, an aribitary handicap for an event is issued.... To quote Jeremy Clarkson, "How hard can it be?"

To refer to another thread, maybe we will have to go with carbon masts, to be competitive on the punitive handicap the SJ organisers have decreed.

I did not think my comments were unacceptable or abusive ( If they were Mark or Mags would have pulled them - so maybe the issue is with you?? Now Jim, you know, from the CVRDA forum, I will stand my ground, and defend my comments to the hilt. In a free society, we all surely have a right to free speech? maybe if the Blaze, was a New Zealand creation, you would not be so against it?)

Jon

Another thought occurs, most class associations are aware, of the relative speed of thier boats, compared to other classes, and, open discussions with relevant associations, by event organisers, may avoid this sort of discussion in the future.....

It does need to be a two way street, to get the handicaps correct, just sticking a finger in the air and taking a (possibly educated) guess, does not foster good will.....

Jon
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:55pm
+1 to those three posts

(edit Jon slipped in there before me)

Edited by Jack Sparrow - 11 Jan 12 at 1:56pm
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Posts: 211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 12 at 1:57pm
Ah - now we are getting a bit more positive.

I think Mike's idea has merit - but could be hard to organise in practice.  Getting 'good' sailors to give up their campaigns in their normal boats for long enough to get sufficient data might be hard.  Though it might work with good sailors emerging from the junior classes who can't afford a new (or even reasonable boat).

I still think it would help if a newish boat could turn up as an 'experimental' entry and race, but would not be eligible for prizes.  This used to happen on an informal basis I think in the BM - I certainly remember the foilers racing but not being eligible for a prize - but would be better if it was a more formal process with a class declaring it.  It would then mitigate the (in my view correct) tendency of race committees to be conservative when allocating PYs to new boats that would otherwise be eligible for prizes.
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