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Bring back the Biff |
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G.R.F. 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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 Topic: Bring back the BiffPosted: 14 Dec 11 at 11:26am |
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I'm assuming nothing has changed much beyond my comprehension but if it has then I apologise upfront and expect to stand corrected, but the thing everyone forgets here is that it's an amateur sport, this isn't a highly paid football player arguing with a referee. This is an amateur sailor, albeit well known, but an amateur nonetheless, it's a Worlds, is there even prize money on the table? I doubt it.
He's hauled his ass out to Perth where no doubt the cons have made a media event out of it a la Kerry Packer with cricket and like all competitors, herded about at the whim of the Race Committee set some course that nowadays suits the small screen. There will be the overfed and overvalued swanning about on Gin Palaces not to mention the Gravy Trainers along on their expense accounts and it'll be these t**sers that'll decide the poor b**tards fate. As I said in my previous post none of whom have the slightest inkling of what it takes to do what he does, nor even give a toss. So he stopped to have a word with the idiot in the rib for ruining his day, I mean after all he's only travelled half way across the world with his boat, it's only a world event, his entire life hinges on results from events like this, why shouldn't he explain his displeasure? He should tell them to do one and chuck it all in. Arrogant t**ts. Sailing and sailing committees they've always been so up themselves, stuff like this makes me so glad I did.
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gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 11:02am |
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The Jury's decision is now available on line : http://static.sportresult.com/PERTH2011/data/pdf/Jury/Case-48.pdf
It is clear that the Jury felt that BA's anger was justified, but that jumping aboard a media boat and "grabbing" the driver is unacceptable, constituting physical agression. BA was penalised for a gross breach of good manners and for bringing the sport of sailing in to disrepute. The penalty was to be excluded from the race and all remaining races of the series, as per rule 69.1(b)2 In reply to Sargesail - I agree that Organising Authorities and Race Committees should be more proactive in policing interference form media, coach and official boats. If they had been doing so throughout the event BA may not have reacted so violently. As I understand it the media boat was part of the official organisation of the regatta. They had been asked to do a job, which was considered to be essential to the success of the regatta. The broadcater had a contract with ISAF, and had unrestricted access on the water. The media boats were official boats, and the media personnel part of the organising team. Not just a bloke driving a RIB! Details of the policy governing the media are included in the SIs and the Athletes Media Guide was includes as part of the rules. In view of the RYA's policy it seems to me inevitable that there will be some kind of official action - which may conclude to proceed no further as a sufficient penalty has been applied. A complete exposé of RYA thinking on misconduct is set out at : http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/Best%20practices%20and%20guidance/RYA%20Guidance%20-%20Misconduct%20Guidance%20for%20RYA%20Race%20Officials%20-%2001%2011.pdf Can't agree with you comment about needing to remain agressive...there has to be a limit. Contrast BA's reaction with that of Sam Warburton's when he was shown a red card in the rugby World Cup! An international open side flanker needs a great deal more "aggressive edge". We have to accept that competitor's behaviour will have to take account of the fact that they are being filmed and that any misconduct can be seen by many people. Even your local racing may be filmed and up on youtube within minutes. Gordon |
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Gordon
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tickel
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 10:37am |
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Oh, thanks, you learn so much on this forum........
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tickel
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rogue
Really should get out more
Joined: 04 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 978 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 10:28am |
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almost certainly not, in fact you might find it helps your sponsors sell more button-down collar shirts to its chavvy customers who equally like shoving folk about.
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tickel
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 9:52am |
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But would that affect my Olympic selection.............
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tickel
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rogue
Really should get out more
Joined: 04 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 978 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 8:50am |
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Probably best to push him around a bit instead Tickel... at least you'll get a reaction.
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tickel
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408 |
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Posted: 14 Dec 11 at 8:44am |
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If when club sailing one was impeded by a novice rescue boat driver, would one not be able to offer advice in order that future mistakes were avoided?
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tickel
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sargesail
Really should get out more
Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Posted: 13 Dec 11 at 11:08pm |
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Gordon, I look forward to your posts - they usually bring both an accurate and common sense response to the rules discussions here. However you've disappointed me today. I say that in the context of watching one of my team's rugby players being denigrated by his own supporters on a forum in a vaguely similar situation. 2 The SIs do not prevent the Race Committee or the Jury from requesting redress. They could have done so on the basis of a report from BA (see rule 60.3). Competitors in this event cannot request redress themselves, but that does not prevent them from making a report. By visiting the media boat himself BA forgo this option. That may all be true - but as a number of the statements and posts elsewhere have made clear that method of control had simply not been effective on the media boats at this event. And more to the point although Ben might have got redress had he been swamped/capsized by a media boat using this methodology I imagine that he was just as annoyed that the media boat might have denied him the chance to attack and pass the boat ahead - and gettting a redress based on the fact that one "might" go from second to first simply isn't going to happen. 3. The Jury must make a report to the RYA (rule 69.1c). In view of the widely reported position of the RYA on the matter of dissent I believe that they will have little or no option but to take action against BA. Get the process. But this is where I have my biggest issue with your post and that of some of the other posters who are down on Ben. Because too many are treating this as if it were dissent (see above for discussion of remonstrating with a jury boat and the risk of rule 69). It is not. Dissent would be a similar altercation with a jury member, race officer etc. This is a bloke driving a boat for another bloke with a camera. Ben was wrong to climb aboard and vent (although would it have been wrong if he had come alongside, asked permission to come aboard and asked permission (kinds of puts a different perspective on it.)) You can argue that it brings the sport into disrepute - but I'm not entirely convinced by that. And it's certainly a breach (gross?) of good manners (hard to quantify without knowing what was said). But don't call assume it should be treated as dissent - it isn't and it shouldn't. 4. BA is a professional sportsman. Ultimately his career and lifestyle are funded by the images produced by the media. He has to accept that media involvement will change the sport and that highly mediatised events may be sailed in less than perfect conditions. Media can change the sport - but not the race. If it does we end up in a very bad place. 5. That said, there is a problem in that whilst sailors (and most of the Jury on the water) will spend much of their life in the context of elite racing, this may not be the case for the drivers of mediaboats. An argument could be made for insisting that boats allowed on the course should only be driven by experienced people actively involved in racing - as a National Judge and Umpire I would be happy to volunteer! 6. Finally, BA lost at most a place by the media boats actions. By his reaction he lost any chance of winning the regatta and may have lost the chance to sail in the Olympics. Let's hope he starts working with a sports psychologist to "tame his monkey". Nope - he needs that aggressive edge. Let's hope that the real cause - a dope in a boat is removed. The other thing I had hoped was that you would dispel the myth that in Race 10 Ben was DGM for the Black Flag. IIRC if the race officer let's the start go and the boat is not identified then the boat may sail on. If they were pulling them with a board somewhere on the course then fair enough - but in this case, especially as Ben appears from reports to have sat on Postma, this would have been the subject of a seperate Rule 2/Rule 69 hearing with a different set of facts found. So in my view we have a clever jury which has given a penalty such that Ben took no further part in the event, but did so with minimum possible penalty in race terms to achieve this (Noting that Rule 69.1 b (2) allows disqualification from the race in question, the rest of the series or the whole series). I just hop ISAF and the RYA recognise that....too many seem unwilling and unprepared to on here. In fct other forums are much more balanced.
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gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 13 Dec 11 at 5:57pm |
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1. From the photos I have seen BA was more concerned with "talking" to the driver not the cameraman.
2 The SIs do not prevent the Race Committee or the Jury from requesting redress. They could have done so on the basis of a report from BA (see rule 60.3). Competitors in this event cannot request redress themselves, but that does not prevent them from making a report. By visiting the media boat himself BA forgo this option. 3. The Jury must make a report to the RYA (rule 69.1c). In view of the widely reported position of the RYA on the matter of dissent I believe that they will have little or no option but to take action against BA. 4. BA is a professional sportsman. Ultimately his career and lifestyle are funded by the images produced by the media. He has to accept that media involvement will change the sport and that highly mediatised events may be sailed in less than perfect conditions. 5. That said, there is a problem in that whilst sailors (and most of the Jury on the water) will spend much of their life in the context of elite racing, this may not be the case for the drivers of mediaboats. An argument could be made for insisting that boats allowed on the course should only be driven by experienced people actively involved in racing - as a National Judge and Umpire I would be happy to volunteer! 6. Finally, BA lost at most a place by the media boats actions. By his reaction he lost any chance of winning the regatta and may have lost the chance to sail in the Olympics. Let's hope he starts working with a sports psychologist to "tame his monkey". Gordon |
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Gordon
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bustinben
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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Posted: 13 Dec 11 at 5:31pm |
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The solution to that is not to take away the competitors' right to redress though... The solution is either to have a few hearings, after which the athletes will understand what constitutes a valid protest, or to solve the whole situation and have a moving exclusion zone around the race from which media boats are banned. I think that sometimes the organisers/top level management of sailing fall short because most of them haven't competed at the top level. They probably don't appreciate what a difference it makes to a boat like the finn or laser to have a rib wake stirring things up. A hit on the bow by the wake, at the wrong moment when you're trying to catch a wave will cost you 2x the wavelength instantly. Having to make a move to avoid someone when you're marginally surfing on one... the loss could be many times that. I've got in to trouble with a jury boat before for shouting to them when they've impeded me... had a chat with them afterwards and it was apparent that they just didn't appreciate what a difference me having to make a turn at that particular point had made (I dropped off the wave). All they cared about was that I was potentially liable to a rule 69 if they'd misinterpreted it or thought i'd been abusive. Give that the jury don't necessarily understand... well. Hopefully this will be the "something big" that causes this stuff to get sorted out, but that's probably wishful thinking.
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