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Blaze vs Laser Comparison
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rogue View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by blaze720

.....  we all know Kurio99 is a Cirrus sockpuppettWell news to us - honestly I've no idea who Kurio is ....  .


quick Graeme... we've got a live one!

seriously though, your last points are very valid and imo, local adjustment of the handicapping system on a class basis is the minimum 'step forward' clubs need to adopt if they want their race offerings to improve, attract and retain racing sailors in the longer term.

A lot of the boats in handicap fleets are actually just great fun to sail- the Blaze included from my 2 times out in one, (if that counts for sh*t). So unlike a crappy fleet boat you only own to 'race', you can (often) have more fun just going for a blast in clean air in a decent boat, than following a procession around a.n.other cats cradle on the club cans.

I've lost count of the number of races I started in an RS600, Vareo, MPS etc but got so frustrated with the bullsh*t around me- crappy fetches, tight reaches, sailing in the lee of the shoreline, pathetic aggression from flying fifteens, procession sailing, excessive pumping, other cheating like mark hitting without any turns etc, I went off and had a better sail elsewhere.

That said, when I raced at a smaller club, where rule observation was better, handicaps were adjusted and the courses were tighter with marks that moved to provide more tactical racing, well everyone just seemed to enjoy it- almost irrespective of their chosen chariot.

Edited by rogue - 14 Nov 11 at 3:56pm
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The problem with the PY system is that it is always an average or all boats sailing in all conditions.
 
The online PY system which gives 'tailored' PYs for your club is much better as it takes in to account the prevailing conditions at your local stretch of water.
 
For some classes what you need to remember is that as boat 'refinement' (for non-development classes' takes place the boats will get faster. 2 examples I can think of are the Fireball and the Phantom.
 
The Fireball denefitted from have a relatively loose measurement set and it was found (by our antipodean cousins) that going to 1 extreme made the boat signficantly faster especially in waves. That combined with modern building methods (making the hull lighter, keep the weight out of the ends) results in a boat that is significantly faster than others (but they all measure). Now the Fireball PY has pretty much caught up with this development but you do need to appreciate that there are only around 1300 of these 'fast' hulls around, there are (potentially) 10,000+ which are slower, a lot of which will be sailed at club level (which is what contributes to the PY the RYA chucks out).
 
The Phantom has had a similar benefit but more down to modern building methods and the ability to consistently produce hulls that are dureable and down to weight. that combined with now having a carbon rig and a development 'arms race' in sails (by having several good sail makers) has refined the boat probably to close to it's optimum. This is a huge step that has taken place in a relatively short time. There are probably some 250 boats that are down to weight with carbon rigs but there are still potentially 1000+ out there that are not. The PY is beginning to catch up (there was an 8 point drop this year I believe and many clubs are using lower numbers than the published number).
 
Combine that with the wide range of abilities (we have everything at Hunts from National Champions to  complete novices), the prevailing local conditions (wind and water) and you can have a PY that seems to be too slow for some clubs and too fast for others.
 
This is where the Laser loses out. As there are so many and they are generally the accepted benchmark they are a jack of all trades but master of none. So they tend to perform 'average' all the time without ever seeming to shine.
 
As for the Blaze, very little has changed in reality since the boat first started rolling off the production line. The hull shape is the same. There was a rig change in around 2000. This did not make the boat any faster just easier to sail. I also believe the foils have been changed slighty between the original boats (sub sail no 654) and the 'X' boats (654 and onwards). Given their recent nationals and inlands it has been proved that a well sorted 'Mk 1' or 'pre X' boat is still competitive with several of them mixing it at the sharp end.
 
I think that about covers it without going in to yet another PY debate.......it is logical when you think about it just not ideal. The RYA PY guys are working to make it better but at the end of the day if your club isn't involved and making returns then you have to put up with what you are given (or lobby your sailing secrtary to submit the return).
 
Anyway....that is far too much heavy stuff as Mike says, I need to go sailing now.....
Paul
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by rogue

[I've lost count of the number of races I started in an RS600, Vareo, MPS etc but got so frustrated with the bullsh*t around me- crappy fetches, tight reaches, sailing in the lee of the shoreline, pathetic aggression from flying fifteens, procession sailing, excessive pumping, other cheating like mark hitting without any turns etc, I went off and had a better sail elsewhere.

That said, when I raced at a smaller club, where rule observation was better, handicaps were adjusted and the courses were tighter with marks that moved to provide more tactical racing, well everyone just seemed to enjoy it- almost irrespective of their chosen chariot.
 
Well put, but on rule observance we are a self policing sport, if we are to stay that way then things need to be said to the rule breakers.
 
If they don't want to know then there is normally another sailing club not too far away where things are better....
Paul
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by jeffers

If they don't want to know then there is normally another sailing club not too far away where things are better (and still offer enough space to enjoy an 'open water' boat and clean enough winds for a board)....


if only that were true... with a little edit ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 4:40pm
 
No problem Mike.
 
Originally posted by rogue

seriously though, your last points are very valid and imo, local adjustment of the handicapping system on a class basis is the minimum 'step forward' clubs need to adopt if they want their race offerings to improve, attract and retain racing sailors in the longer term.

 
 
Absolutely agree, and those locally adjusted results need to be returned so that the PY team can factor them in.
 
This is something I've was trying to get our club to do, but I must admit I've given it up as a lost cause.


Edited by GK.LaserII - 14 Nov 11 at 4:44pm
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kurio99 View Drop Down
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Posts: 65 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kurio99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by rogue

yeah right Mike... we all know Kurio99 is a Cirrus sockpuppett
This is hilarious! Tongue
 
For one thing, I live in Canada where the Blaze and all Cirrus products are about as rare as a stork in the wild.
 
Second, I just bought a Stealth so I am a sockpuppet to CL Boatworks! LOL
 
My original question was pure curiousity about the relationship of boat design to performance.  Cheers!
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 8:00pm
Nice cover story Mike ;-)
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by kurio99

Originally posted by rogue

yeah right Mike... we all know Kurio99 is a Cirrus sockpuppett
This is hilarious! Tongue
 
For one thing, I live in Canada where the Blaze and all Cirrus products are about as rare as a stork in the wild.
 
Second, I just bought a Stealth so I am a sockpuppet to CL Boatworks! LOL
 
My original question was pure curiousity about the relationship of boat design to performance.  Cheers!


t'was the racoon wot did it me lud Wink
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 10:59pm
I hit a mark in no wind on Saturday - I suspect no one saw it, but as everyone on the lake must have heard the involuntary "oh, bloody hell", a turn was needed! Think I'd have done them anyway, as it was just sheer stupidity to hit the damn thing, and at that point a turn is really deserved.

Edited by Rupert - 14 Nov 11 at 11:00pm
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 11:14pm
Rupert, I thought you were rambling then until I refreshed Jeffers earlier post re; self policing sport.
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