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Andymac 
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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 Topic: Top dogPosted: 09 Nov 11 at 3:50pm |
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Agree with you totally Jim.
No doubt, whatever the outcome of this appeal it will deserve inclusion in the RYA publication, and comment by them to the ISAF.
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Presuming Ed
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Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 3:51pm |
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I think what we'll find is that JUC will make a recommendation via newsletter etc, the next RYA race management conference, the RYA website etc etc that PCs awarding average points should make a point of specifying average points not including the final day's racing.
The interesting question is whether it makes it upstairs into a recommendation for the ISAF Judges' manual - for whenever that gets updated next. As to how they resolve the the actual appeal, well, we'll have to wait and see. Don't envy having to sort out that particular Gordian knot.
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 6:00pm |
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How can HISC be seen to get it right? They ran a Nationals race where there was doubt whether a boat was over the line. The organisation then compounded the situation by issuing a form of redress which created the match race scenario on the last day. As I see it, the actions of the race and protest committees, and those who decided how they were resourced, are responsible for creating this situation. As a race officer you can do your best with what you have on the day, but if you are working from a small boat in choppy seas, it's not easy. I can see nothing in the rules that forces average points, I wonder whose 'Idea' that was? I am serious about being careful what I volunteer for. I am a member of a club which charges reasonable money for yacht racing, I don't want to run that at half cock with inadequate resources, such as a big enough committee boat and the right people to watch line, and especially the right procedures in place to cope on a busy start line. Competitors expect everything to be right when they've paid good money, they can get upset when things fail because the host club is too profit oriented to provide enough resources. I don't know that that was the issue at HISC, but I could understand people not wanting to get involved. Particularly if you can't have faith in the protest committee to sort out your honest mistakes equitably. Am I right in thinking the crew of one of the boats involved was crucial in organising the whole event? Hence had some oversight of race and protest committees? After the aeroweb farce, I'm wondering what's next. |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 6:17pm |
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Not often a post makes me really angry, but that one does, and goodness knows I'm no fan of HISC. "there was doubt whether a boat was over the line" hot damn, really, what gross incompetence... Do you know, I wasn't quite sure whether or not two boats were over the line for the second race last Sunday: maybe I'd better disqualify myself from ever being on a committee boat again. As for creating the match race scenario, I blame the people who exploited a defect in the scoring system to get a win they couldn't get on the water. As for average points: if you check out Appendix A10 *in the RRS* you'll see that's the first recommendation that a PC is advised to consider when giving redress, and up until this incident I for one would have been guilty of tending to use it without much consideration of alternatives. |
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2547
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Joined: 11 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 6:36pm |
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What ....  How can you critisise the winning team for sailing within the rules to win the championships ON THE WATER ? They were not party to any of these protests ... This situation was not of their making they just responded to the situation that developed. Had the protest comittee made a different decision they may have made other strategic choices that may have equally lead to victory ... or not. We will never know. I can't see how this can be reversed because the winning team will of course say they would have done things differently had the situation been different. |
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Dougal
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Joined: 23 Sep 09 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 556 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 7:05pm |
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I absolutely agree with the first part of what you say (and would have posted something similar but you got in first). Additionally, my original comment was making the point that until the RYA rule, we do not have the definitive answer. It seems there is a consensus on here (myself included) that the original result should have been reinstated but maybe there is a chance we have all got it wrong? (I appreciate that there are a number of people on here who are never wrong, but humour me on this) Not so sure about the exploiting the system comment - it calls in to question the legitimacy of sailing anyone down the fleet. If they have sailed to the rules, then good luck to them. This issue is all about how the rules were applied in the first place. |
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Dougal
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Joined: 23 Sep 09 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 556 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 7:12pm |
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Everyone wants professionally run racing - the problem is this is a sport run by volunteers. Maybe professional clubs with professional race committees is what's needed, but that would in the vast majority of cases be unaffordable. If people don't volunteer, there won't be clubs, racing or regattas for us all to enjoy the sport. And lets not forget that we are only talking about one incident here in one of the 100's of regattas and 10,000's of races that take place each year. Edited by Dougal - 09 Nov 11 at 7:14pm |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 7:30pm |
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Presumably a boat that has been black flagged knows that it has? If that is the situation, is that boat allowed to continue to race, or do the rules force it to retire? If that is the case I can see the logic in the average points decision. If it's not then I can't.
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 7:59pm |
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A boat black flagged on a start which continues into a race would not necessarily know of their transgression until some time later, perhaps even only when the results are posted. If a black flag start becomes a general recall, then the black flagged boats sail numbers are displayed from the committee boat. The onus is on the black flagged boats to acknowledge this and are NOT to participate in the restarted race - To do so would lead to a DNE (a disqualification penalty score which is not excludable). If a boat genuinely feels it has grounds for redress at the time, then having informed the RC of their intention to seek redress, they may start the race but risk a DNE if they loose the request for redress. There is sometimes a practice of getting a RIB at the first mark to inform boats of a black flag infringment, but I'm not sure whether this is necessarily a welcome interference.
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 9:00pm |
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If it's not clear who was over the line, you have (another) general recall. I have checked the appendix of RRS, it says consider average points. A little consideration in this case would surely have predicted the match race? There are other options. As for not being able to get the win on the water, check the results of the Merlin open at HISC earlier in the year. Blaming someone like Taxi for 'playing the hand that's dealt him' is just failing to accept the rules as they stand. If you don't like the rules the way they are, petition to get them changed if you like, but in the mean time, we have to either accept them, vary them locally or leave the sport. I would be quite happy for the rules to state that every boat must sail for its best result in each race, but they don't say that. End of. To answer some other posts, I am not anti-volunteering, I've done some in my time and still sail a lot at amateur run clubs. I do more than my share of duties in fact. But I don't like not having the tools to do the job when it's an expensive or prestigeous event. You don't get this at Cowes, their video tapes take the doubt out of it. |
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