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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top dog
    Posted: 08 Nov 11 at 1:54pm
I have just read a recent thread on the Merlin Rocket forum, and gather that Geoff Carveth has taken the redress decision to RYA appeal.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 11 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Andymac

I have just read a recent thread on the Merlin Rocket forum, and gather that Geoff Carveth has taken the redress decision to RYA appeal.

Is there a time limit?
Surely the appeal needed to be before the last race to be of any use?

I suppose an appeal is the correct way to resolve this farce, which has done nobody any favours.
Particularly not HISC, highlighting the unfortunate choice of redress in a 'wise after the event' fashion will not make club members want to get involved in running races or protest committees.
Certainly makes me think twice about volunteering at my own club (I'll do safety boat and keep out of the flak).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 11 at 10:01pm
As far as I can remember, there is a 15 day limit for the appealant after the protest committee's final decision. The protest committee can also send their own decision to the RYA for review, not sure if there is a time limit for that.
Appeals are certainly held after the final race in a series.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 7:23am
Originally posted by Andymac

As far as I can remember, there is a 15 day limit for the appealant after the protest committee's final decision. The protest committee can also send their own decision to the RYA for review, not sure if there is a time limit for that.
Appeals are certainly held after the final race in a series.
In which case the trophies would not be awarded and the results would be published "subject to protest".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 8:57am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Andymac

As far as I can remember, there is a 15 day limit for the appealant after the protest committee's final decision. The protest committee can also send their own decision to the RYA for review, not sure if there is a time limit for that.
Appeals are certainly held after the final race in a series.
In which case the trophies would not be awarded and the results would be published "subject to protest".
*sigh*
 
Protest=/=Appeal
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:11am
Originally posted by ob1

Originally posted by giraffe

dave Wade fireballs and scrops last year.

Not sure that this years Merlin result for Taxi really counts. Clearly the dominant performance of the week was denied by a shabby race officer decision turned over by a protest committee who then gave shocking and ineffective redress. I would not be surprised to see the result reversed on appeal.
 
I heard there was a BFD decision etc, but what was the real story with that and the redress thing?
 
A copy of my post on the Merlin forum:
 
I wasn't there, and my knowledge of the incident is limited to what I have read on this and another forum, but if what I understand is correct then I'm very pleased that Geoff is appealing because I think it sets an appalling precendent.

My understanding is that Geoff Carveth, along with others, was black-flagged on the start line. Whilst other boats returned to shore, the showers and the bar, Geoff sailed the race, finished in 3rd place and then protested the black flag. After consideration, the protest committee upheld his appeal and awarded him average points.

If that understanding is correct, then the protest committee is wrong. Average points is all they could have awarded had Geoff returned to shore with the other competitors because they would have no way of knowing how he would have fared in the race. But as he sailed the race, there are only two possible outcomes:

1) The black flag was correctly applied to his boat, he was disqualified from racing and his third place is null and void.

2) The black flag was incorrectly applied to his boat, he was therefore racing legally and entitled to his third place.

In upholding his protest the protest committee have opted for 2) and the only option should be to reinstate him in his proper finishing place. To apply 'average points' in such a situation is to try to create a middle ground where there patently is none. In my opnion this makes a mockery of the rules and creates a very dangerous precedent which would have ramifications far beyond this particular incident.
I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right.

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Dougal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 10:12am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Andymac

I have just read a recent thread on the Merlin Rocket forum, and gather that Geoff Carveth has taken the redress decision to RYA appeal.

Is there a time limit?
Surely the appeal needed to be before the last race to be of any use?

I suppose an appeal is the correct way to resolve this farce, which has done nobody any favours.
Particularly not HISC, highlighting the unfortunate choice of redress in a 'wise after the event' fashion will not make club members want to get involved in running races or protest committees.
Certainly makes me think twice about volunteering at my own club (I'll do safety boat and keep out of the flak).
 
The appeal must have been registered a while back as Andy Rice was discussing it in his Y&Y column a couple of issues back.  Whilst everyone likes to see events decided quickly, it is good that sailing does have this redress procedure so a precedent can be set should this situation occur again.  To me it seems obvious that his result in the race in question should have been reinstated, but assuming he has appealed to the RYA, we will now get to see what the correct interpretation of the rules is (and then can start a thread on why the rules are wrong....)
 
BTW I think your comment about not volunteering is perhaps a bit of an over reaction - firstly HISC may have got it right, and secondly if we all gave up at the first sign of controversy then we wouldn't have a sport.
 


Edited by Dougal - 09 Nov 11 at 10:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 2:09pm
BTW I think your comment about not volunteering is perhaps a bit of an over reaction - firstly HISC may have got it right, and secondly if we all gave up at the first sign of controversy then we wouldn't have a sport.
 
Damn right!  And if there was no controversy we wouldn't need this forum either....
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 2:42pm
very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 11 at 2:57pm
I hope that the RYA look at the bigger issue as well. Whilst in this case the RC had a choice of average points or restoring the finish place, in many circumstances they won't have that option.

Redress is only given, don't forget, in a situation when a boat is disadvantaged "through no fault of their own". What we have seen in this event is that a boat which has been given average points is at a serious tactical disadvantage since they score bad points in two races if they are sailed down the fleet or wish to sail someone else down the fleet whereas the other boat only gets one bad score, which discards can deal with. So average points of all races now looks very problematic, and it seems to me highly desirable that RYA, maybe later on ISAF, look further than this single incident and at the general problem it has highlighted.

Edited by JimC - 09 Nov 11 at 3:00pm
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