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    Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:55pm
According to Elvstrom, the Finn was 4th in the scandinavian trials (not IYRU) in 1949, but the design was preferred. Inspired decision, really!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249,
 
You'll notice that I was very careful in my selection of words and made no reference at all to the actual boat that was chosen in the mens 'skiff Trials' at Garda. I'm a great believer in the phrase 'the record books show' and in this case they show that the 49er was chosen. BUT - my comments reflect my interest in not so much the choice of dinghy, but in the process that underpins the selection. The other difference is that I'm not trying to draw inferences from a magazine report - or even quoting from them, but these are my own first hand observations as one who was there (ditto Quiberon/Performance Singlehanders and Hyeres/Indication event womens skiffs).

I'm not just referring to mag reports, by the way. Because ISAF is northern-hemisphere centred I've not had the chance to talk to a whole lot of people about recent trials, but I have had the chance to do a reasonable amount of research and interviewing. I just find contemporary reports to be very valuable and something to use when assessing 40 year old memories.
 
This topic of recent Trials is therefore something of a pet subject for me and having been present, feel that I'm well able to comment in my own right - and have done in a number of articles.
 
Very glad to get your interesting info.

One of my observations would be on how the process has changed: back in the days of the Singlehanded Trials (1965-68) the backers/designers/builders rocked up with their boat and with a chosen helm and that was that, there was no boat swapping nor independance in the sailing.  So, someone with a potentially good boat but who was only an average (or even good) helm, could come up against Elvstrom or Uwe Mares - an Olympic Medallist in the making! This 'rent a helm' played quite a big part in the outcome of the selection process, as because there wasn't any swapping of boats, a good helm in a lesser design could still (and did) feature.
 
Now regarding those Trials...as I get around various sailing events, I'm trying to build up my own library of 'audio histories' - if I can interview one of the movers and shakers from way back when, I will  - capturing their thoughts where possible on Video, if not on audio (sometimes sadly just in writing - , you have to take your chances when offered!).
 
So, I have an indepth store of knowledge from the primary sources - the people who were there. I've interviewed participants  not only in the UK, but in Europe and Australia  too, so have a pretty good feel for what really went on. 

Ditto as far as interviewing a variety of people from a variety of places in the UK, Europe, USA and Australia.

As regards the 2nd set of Trials (La Baule), if you think that in an almost exclusively light airs series, that the prototype Contender was the fastest boat, then I think you're amiss somewhere. Don't forget,  Bob Miller, who was never one for the maths, had got the sail plan wrong, leaving the boat markedly light on sail area! 

I was referring to the third trials (which I should have said) and IIRC I mentioned I didn't have sources to hand. I also understand from primary and secondary sources that it may not have been just the Contender guys who had issues with sail measurements, but other competitors and/or ISAF. Ben was not the greatest numbers man but was he that bad at working out SA? He seems to have been a useful sailmaker.

Certainly Punch, Jeton etc were quicker in the light of the second series, and Craig Whitworth mentions that the Jeton was quicker in the third series in the light. My understanding from Craig, Carl and contemporary reports is that the Contender had a bigger edge in the breeze than the Jeton and Unit had in the light.

By now the IYRU had relaxed the rule on trapezes, 

Was there a rule? I seem to recall a hint or recommendation and Elvstrom campaigning against seats, but although I've tried to contact Paul, I understand he no longer wants to talk.

with the result that many of the entries were doubled up - so you'd have a sliding seat version and a trapeze version of the same boat. (Sadly, Elvstrom didn't compete at La Baule with the Trapez, so what would have been an amazing side show in the competition - Trapez V Contender, never took place: Having not competed in La Baule, he wasn't eligible for Medemblik)
 
These were still early days in trapeze techniques and from the interviews I held with helms who were competing at all of the the events, in the light to medium airs the sliding seat was seen as a preferable option to the trapeze. Being able to sit 1/3 out was so much easier that the quasimodo position,  hunched up on the side deck, that is still to this day the bane of Contender sailors.
 
Slightly OT, but I thought they used a centreline trapping bar? That is a few years old info, though, from Arthur Brett who is an old windsurfing arch rival/team mate.

In the end, the IYRU struck lucky, they had breeze late on in the Medemblik Trials and this allowed the Contender to show it's paces. Even then, it was not straight forward, as there were boats that displayed the potential for superior upwind performance, but off the wind the Contender raced away, which was just what the IYRU wanted.  By then it was clear to all that the Australian boat was the 'chosen one', even when the results still suggested that the event was wide open. 

I can't find the results as given. My filing really needs work. However, I would be interested in the scores.

It was so obvious in fact that on the penultimate day, after sailing, most of the other 'teams' stopped work on sorting their boats and instead went for a 'knickerbocker glory' eating competition. This was won by the late and great Peter Bateman (who went to to win the Fireball Worlds), who ate so many that he was too sick to sail the final day. So, the IYRU got the boat they wanted, only to then marginalize it under pressure from the widespread powerbase of the Finn - and the rest is, as they say history.

But there is one final point  re the Contender- seeing that you raised the name of Jack Knights. Now I knew Jack, I'd not go so far as to say 'well', but enough to be on first name terms. After the selection of the Contender, Jack was put on the International Launch Committee for the new class, a task that he managed in parallel with that of importing boats into the UK.  He was part of a group that ran demo events and races around the country, one of which was held at Weston. After the event, he was at my parents house, along with Tim Hockin, Dinghy Mast supremo at Proctors (these two, together with Paul Nevard at Banks and the irrepressible Freddie Gale) were very much the driving force behind getting the class established. In the robust discussions about the boat that day, Jack was clear that he was more than mindful of the Achillies Heel of the boat - in particular the light airs performance. A life long supporter of one design sailing, Jack held the view that as long as you're sailing against other Contenders this is okay, as you're all hunched up and bloody uncomfortable together, a valid point as even now, with far better rig control, this is still the downside of sailing what has to be still one of the best dinghies there is.
 
PS - A Class cats...now until recently, I still sailed sometimes with people who were at Sheppy in 1965, so again I'm drawing and making my comments on what I would class as 'primary source' material.  The australian boat was more sophisticated and at that stage more advanced that the Unicorn - which is reflected in the Series results.  But again, there was no swapping around of helms as you'd get today, so someone who knew his boat well and could exploit the performance was always going to be well placed. Still, the view, from people who were actually at Sheppy, was that the Unicorn was the 'right' boat  - as events went on to prove!
 
Today, the Trials are so much more meaningful, only to come a distant 2nd place to the goings on in the Committee Rooms some time later!
 
Dougal

But with respect, is there objective evidence that the ISAF trials came to the wrong decision and (say) the Unit or Unicorn should have been chosen? You say the Contender is one of the best boats around, so doesn't that underline that the ISAF process, while human and therefore imperfect, may not deserve a lot of the criticism it cops? I'm thinking about those who claim (for example) that the Hornet, Thistle and Osprey beat the FD when the contemporary detailed records show nothing of the sort.*

Okay, you may feel the Unit is quicker in light winds and the Contender has issues in light stuff (agreed) but what I was trying to say is that the criticism heaped on ISAF trials may not be earned. With respect, if you or I or anyone happens to believe that light wind performance means the Unit should have been chosen (or something like that) then we simply have a difference of opinion with ISAF's selectors. Does that mean that the whole edifice deserves the abuse so often thrown at it?

Can't ISAF's selectors be allowed to have different preferences, particularly since people from different countries often have different tastes in boats? Maybe ISAF chose the Contender because Euros and Yanks (I've forgotten who was on the committee) preferred something more stable in light winds, even at the expense of light air speed. If so, how can we know that they are wrong in making that choice, or no more subject to politics or unfavourable influences any more than you or I and Joe Bloggs (well, at least Bloggsy and me) are?

Furthermore, while I'm happy to admit that the Unicorn may well have been the better boat, in what way was this "proven"? Sure, the Australis failed, but the Unicorn hasn't exactly taken off in a big way internationally. Maybe the world just wasn't ready for a one design A Class - after all, the 17-18' singlehanded OD cat bracket remains pretty dead despite attempts by Nacra, Hobie, etc. Therefore is it ISAF's fault for choosing the wrong boat? Maybe they tried valiantly but just failed, in the same way as mag editors, boatbuilders and pundits fail because they are human?

Sometimes it seems that ISAF just cops it no matter what it does. They cop it for varying from their specs (Dart and Soling) for making choices outside the specs, they cop it for staying within their specs (Lexcen on the Contender being too heavy). They cop it if the boat dominates the trials and than fails in the marketplace (Tempest) or if they choose a boat that doesn't win every trial (Soling) and does quite well in the marketplace for a while. 

The main point, though, was that there is a lot of misinformation about the ISAF trials. People abuse the system for daring to choose a boat they don't personally want. The system isn't perfect, but surely we must allow for people to have different ideas about boats than we do?

PS - none of this excuses that bloody RSX! Dead :-)


* in this case and the Finn trials I am going strictly off records as I could only interview one person actually involved in the trials.


Edited by Chris 249 - 31 Oct 11 at 11:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Stargazey

[/QUOTE]<
If you are going to make such criticisms, could you please provide evidence that the trials occurred and of those results?
 

[/QUOTE]
This is an extract from a personal e-mail from Ian Bruce, the designer of the Byte and Byte CII (also, I think - but may well be wrong, the Laser)
 
"I’m afraid that, ever since the CII went up against the Radial for the 2008 Olympic Games, and although judged the best suited, it lost to the Radial (judged the least suited!). At that moment in time It was no longer viewed or sailed on its merit but became the “either/or” boat to the Radial."
[/QUOTE]

But with respect, that says nothing about their being a trial series - merely that the Byte CII was a candidate for the Games, which has never been in doubt.

Like David, I'm interested in the ISAF/IYRU trials to the extent of interviewing those who attended and finding and copying just about everything I can find. I did an interview with Ian about the CII rig and sailed the prototype, but I could not and cannot find anything about any trials for the women's singlehander.

There WAS a selection, but there is not the slightest hint of any trials ever being held, or of the Byte (nice boat as it is) winning it.  As the Byte class itself said of its summary about the Olympic selection, "The Events Committee appointed a Working Party to assess the merits of all the boats submitted for all the disciplines and to submit their recommendations in Copenhagen. Canada’s David Sprague was a member of this Working Party. Based on this report, the Events Committee then voted on the Classes to be recommended to the ISAF Council which is the final decision making body within the organization.

The Events committee chose the Radial and made that recommendation to Council. In all the other disciplines the decision on the equipment was either unanimous or with an overwhelming majority. In the Women’s Singlehander it was Radial 12, Europe 8, Byte 1 and 1 abstention. This followed closely the recommendations of the Working Party....

The Byte CII was seen to be a boat that was seriously addressing the issue of weight with a modern, attractive, state-of-the art rig. However, it was felt that picking the Byte would be more risky at this stage of the development of the CII rig than choosing either the Radial or the Europe. 

“The Byte, with its new CII rig, offers the prospect of low costs and greater appeal through change to a modern, low cost, high technology rig.”


The above comes from the Byte class' own report - 


http://www.byteclass.org/news/cii/After_Copenhagen.htm



The official minutes of the ISAF Events Committee meeting for 10 November give the following votes- Byte 1, Europe 7, Flash 0, Radial 11, Zoom 0. See


http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/min_EC_10_11_2004-[2964].pdf

The class's own report says nothing about the Byte being judged best suited and the Radial least suited, and in fact it says quite the opposite - that the Working Party appointed to judge the boats found only 1 vote going to the Byte compared to 12 to the Radial.


The Byte's own statement on the Olympic selection clearly states that the Byte was NOT "judged the best boat". It was, according to the Byte report, " the subject of discussion in at least three Committees – the Women’s Committee, the Sailing Committee and the Centreboard Committee. In all three cases the Byte Class was complimented on the development it was undertaking with the new rig and that it was almost certainly the future of singlehanded sailing."

I have already referred to Ian as being (according to Julian Bethwaite)) a genius and I think he is a brilliant man who has done a lot for sailing. The Byte is a very nice boat (the comment about nosediving comes straight from Ian to me and is not so much a criticism as a comment about the fact that no boat is perfect) and the CII rig is nice (I sailed one during its development).

However, it seems clear that there was no trials and no ISAF decision that clearly went against logic.

You may think that the Byte CII should have been chosen, I may think the Byte or the Brand X 26 should have been chosen, Joe Bloggs may think the Woopersuper 12 should have been chosen. But is the fact that someone else had a different view to you or me or Joe proof that they are wrong? 

With respect, there still seem to be very few cases in which there is OBJECTIVE proof that ISAF got it wrong. Sure, some people may have preferred different outcomes and ISAF isn't perfect, but surely we have to allow for the fact that the Czechs and Yanks and the guy down the road have the right to choose something we may not choose?



Edited by Chris 249 - 31 Oct 11 at 11:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stargazey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 8:00pm
[/QUOTE]
If you are going to make such criticisms, could you please provide evidence that the trials occurred and of those results?
 

[/QUOTE]
This is an extract from a personal e-mail from Ian Bruce, the designer of the Byte and Byte CII (also, I think - but may well be wrong, the Laser)
 
"I’m afraid that, ever since the CII went up against the Radial for the 2008 Olympic Games, and although judged the best suited, it lost to the Radial (judged the least suited!). At that moment in time It was no longer viewed or sailed on its merit but became the “either/or” boat to the Radial."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 3:04pm
Chris 249,
 
You'll notice that I was very careful in my selection of words and made no reference at all to the actual boat that was chosen in the mens 'skiff Trials' at Garda. I'm a great believer in the phrase 'the record books show' and in this case they show that the 49er was chosen. BUT - my comments reflect my interest in not so much the choice of dinghy, but in the process that underpins the selection. The other difference is that I'm not trying to draw inferences from a magazine report - or even quoting from them, but these are my own first hand observations as one who was there (ditto Quiberon/Performance Singlehanders and Hyeres/Indication event womens skiffs).
 
This topic of recent Trials is therefore something of a pet subject for me and having been present, feel that I'm well able to comment in my own right - and have done in a number of articles.
 
One of my observations would be on how the process has changed: back in the days of the Singlehanded Trials (1965-68) the backers/designers/builders rocked up with their boat and with a chosen helm and that was that, there was no boat swapping nor independance in the sailing.  So, someone with a potentially good boat but who was only an average (or even good) helm, could come up against Elvstrom or Uwe Mares - an Olympic Medallist in the making! This 'rent a helm' played quite a big part in the outcome of the selection process, as because there wasn't any swapping of boats, a good helm in a lesser design could still (and did) feature.
 
Now regarding those Trials...as I get around various sailing events, I'm trying to build up my own library of 'audio histories' - if I can interview one of the movers and shakers from way back when, I will  - capturing their thoughts where possible on Video, if not on audio (sometimes sadly just in writing - , you have to take your chances when offered!).
 
So, I have an indepth store of knowledge from the primary sources - the people who were there. I've interviewed participants  not only in the UK, but in Europe and Australia  too, so have a pretty good feel for what really went on. As regards the 2nd set of Trials (La Baule), if you think that in an almost exclusively light airs series, that the prototype Contender was the fastest boat, then I think you're amiss somewhere. Don't forget,  Bob Miller, who was never one for the maths, had got the sail plan wrong, leaving the boat markedly light on sail area! By now the IYRU had relaxed the rule on trapezes, with the result that many of the entries were doubled up - so you'd have a sliding seat version and a trapeze version of the same boat. (Sadly, Elvstrom didn't compete at La Baule with the Trapez, so what would have been an amazing side show in the competition - Trapez V Contender, never took place: Having not competed in La Baule, he wasn't eligible for Medemblik)
 
These were still early days in trapeze techniques and from the interviews I held with helms who were competing at all of the the events, in the light to medium airs the sliding seat was seen as a preferable option to the trapeze. Being able to sit 1/3 out was so much easier that the quasimodo position,  hunched up on the side deck, that is still to this day the bane of Contender sailors.
 
In the end, the IYRU struck lucky, they had breeze late on in the Medemblik Trials and this allowed the Contender to show it's paces. Even then, it was not straight forward, as there were boats that displayed the potential for superior upwind performance, but off the wind the Contender raced away, which was just what the IYRU wanted.  By then it was clear to all that the Australian boat was the 'chosen one', even when the results still suggested that the event was wide open.  It was so obvious in fact that on the penultimate day, after sailing, most of the other 'teams' stopped work on sorting their boats and instead went for a 'knickerbocker glory' eating competition. This was won by the late and great Peter Bateman (who went to to win the Fireball Worlds), who ate so many that he was too sick to sail the final day. So, the IYRU got the boat they wanted, only to then marginalize it under pressure from the widespread powerbase of the Finn - and the rest is, as they say history.
 
But there is one final point  re the Contender- seeing that you raised the name of Jack Knights. Now I knew Jack, I'd not go so far as to say 'well', but enough to be on first name terms. After the selection of the Contender, Jack was put on the International Launch Committee for the new class, a task that he managed in parallel with that of importing boats into the UK.  He was part of a group that ran demo events and races around the country, one of which was held at Weston. After the event, he was at my parents house, along with Tim Hockin, Dinghy Mast supremo at Proctors (these two, together with Paul Nevard at Banks and the irrepressible Freddie Gale) were very much the driving force behind getting the class established. In the robust discussions about the boat that day, Jack was clear that he was more than mindful of the Achillies Heel of the boat - in particular the light airs performance. A life long supporter of one design sailing, Jack held the view that as long as you're sailing against other Contenders this is okay, as you're all hunched up and bloody uncomfortable together, a valid point as even now, with far better rig control, this is still the downside of sailing what has to be still one of the best dinghies there is.
 
PS - A Class cats...now until recently, I still sailed sometimes with people who were at Sheppy in 1965, so again I'm drawing and making my comments on what I would class as 'primary source' material.  The australian boat was more sophisticated and at that stage more advanced that the Unicorn - which is reflected in the Series results.  But again, there was no swapping around of helms as you'd get today, so someone who knew his boat well and could exploit the performance was always going to be well placed. Still, the view, from people who were actually at Sheppy, was that the Unicorn was the 'right' boat  - as events went on to prove!
 
Today, the Trials are so much more meaningful, only to come a distant 2nd place to the goings on in the Committee Rooms some time later!
 
Dougal
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 3:29am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Those of you who also used to take/read 'Dinghy Sailing Magazine' may well remember that I did a series of articles, 'Trial by Jury' on how successful the Trial process can be - or not be.
 
I've a lot of detailed information going back to 1952, much of this might well be seen as contradicting some of the more popular beliefs already expressed here on the subject. It has to be remembered that back in the days of the IYRU, classes didn't get get hoiked up into the Olympics (think Laser/49er/Elliot 6), but instead  got added to a list - the boats were then chosen from that list. So the Trials were not for a actual  place in the Olympic Regatta, but for inclusion onto the A list - as that was the gateway to the 5 ring circus. In theory, the Contender AND Musto Skiff are both there on that list - somewhere!!
 
Did it go wrong..well, at times, yes it did. The same set of Trials that chose the Tornado also selected the Australis as the chosen A class - over the top of the superior, yet maybe not as pretty Unicorn, and in doing so put back the progress of the A class movement by many a year. The Unicorn as a cat may be dated now against the modern hi tech A class boats, but on Handicap are still well capable to giving good account for themselves.

The Unicorn may well have been the better boat to select, but is there much evidence that the Australia was inferior?  According to Modern Boating magazine's report, Australis scored a DNF, capsized (no place given in reports), 3,1,1,1,1 (but race abandoned after everyone rounded the wrong mark), 2 and won the points series of the trials.

Australis had her defects, like the curved beams which were expensive, but winning three or four races and getting the points for the series surely indicates that it was not inferior. My info, from A Class champs of the time, is that the issue was with the marketing by the designer, not the boat. 

I'm NOT saying she was the best boat to my knowledge - after all, canoe sterns and super-slim hulls are not very popular today but then again the Australis bows look pretty modern - but on what evidence was she clearly inferior?

As for the Contender - well.......here you have a classic example of a Committee setting out their criteria then moving the goal posts! (and not just once either). I covered this topic in detail in the book on the Contender, but suffice to say that the Contender 'winning on the water' was far from the case . As anyone who has put time in on the boat knows, it can be a frustrating pig of a boat in light airs and that is being generous to what is still one of the loveist boats to look at afloat. I've had the chance to sail the David Thomas Unit quite extensively and would say that in light to medium airs, the Unit was quicker upwind and down (thought entries to the Single handed Trials had been told that mere speed was only one factor). In addition, the Unit was the one leading boat that was not being sailed by a very high profile 'hot shot' helm, brought in for the event. Even so, had the IYRU had followed their own criteria, the Unit or Jeton could well have got the nod back at Weymouth...but as to the why...well, that's a long story.

I can't find my records on the second trials, but I'm fairly sure that the results show a clear victory to the Contender. If you think that is incorrect, can you please provide the results?

I'll try to find my contemporary reports. I'm fairly sure that guys like Jack Knights said that the Contender was clearly quicker overall.

As is the seletion of the 49er which was also far from straight forward, though here the pressures were very different. Sadly, the fear of official retribution precludes me going into more detail - let's just leave this one as a case of "the record books show that the 49er was selected".
 
Again, press reports in Seahorse for example were unanimous in praising the 49er as the best boat. The chief selector was so impressed that he bought one.

Do you really think that the Boss or 5000 were better boats?

Jim C and others wondering about the first Womens Skiff Trials - I'm sure I've covered this before on this forum but the simple answer is that they never happened. What went on down at Hyeres was just an indicative exercise for ISAF, so that they could - and I quote now from my own records of the time,"see what is out there".  As such, the media were discouraged and stayed away - though in sheer bloody mindedness I did attend - the only journalist to do so.. Now just because it looked like a Trial, smelt like a trial and to the observer gave all the appearance of a trial it wasn't - ISAF still insist to this day it was only an indicative event. (For those of you who are RS Association Members, go back two issues of the RS Mag and you'll see my report on what happened there -  suffice to say the GT60 looked great as did the newly redecked 800 - as far as I could see, these were the two boats that best 'hit the spot') NOTE: that view is taken as a 100% independant. I owe allegience to no one!!)
 
But come the Ladies Skiff Trials, will the 'best boat' win, for that is the real heart of the question.  There is little doubt in my mind that the best boat for sailing/racing, the best overall package and the name of the boat finally selected, may end have very little in common - but that I am afraid is the heavily politic driven and comercial nature of the final decision making process!! (don't forget - the RYA has already shown a willingness to throw away it's long term investment in the 420 and 470, to cast a vote for what was then the almost untried version of the 29erXX)
 
Dougal
Bearfacemedia (as a journalist do I have to declare a commercial interest when writing something?)

Interesting stuff, Dougal, but if the 49er wasn't the best boat then just about every press report of the time was wrong as far as I can see!

Which boat do you claim was better - the extraordinarily heavy Laser 5000, the Boss which has died out, the B14, the Mach 2, or something else?

Surely we need some evidence to conclude Seahorse and other mags and the Bethwaites and Michael Jackson (who are of course biased) are wrong. Where the published race times and reports inaccurate?

Why was there a political fix and how come the 49er consortium out-politicked the powerful Laser UK and Topper companies?

Surely we have to have some very strong evidence before claiming someone else made the wrong decision and for dubious reasons. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 30 Oct 11 at 3:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 2:39am
Originally posted by Stargazey

Winning races at 'trials' does not get the best boat.  When a replacement for the Europe was being sought, the Olympic trials deemed the Byte CII as 'most suitable'.  The Laser Radial was deemed 'least suitable' of the various boats on offer ... which makes its eventual selection a rather odd affair.


When was there an Olympic trials series between the Laser Radial and the Byte CII?

The Byte CII site doesn't refer to one. The ISAF press release about the selection makes no mention of one (seehttp://sailing.org.au/?page=13652&Format=,%20print,%20pda&MenuID=News%2F10537%2F0). 

Google gives no clue. I certainly cannot recall hearing of one, or reading of one. 

With respect, it's a bit harsh for ISAF to cop criticism for allegedly ignoring trials that apparently did not actually occur!  If you are going to make such criticisms, could you please provide evidence that the trials occurred and of those results?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stargazey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 6:35pm

Winning races at 'trials' does not get the best boat.  When a replacement for the Europe was being sought, the Olympic trials deemed the Byte CII as 'most suitable'.  The Laser Radial was deemed 'least suitable' of the various boats on offer ... which makes its eventual selection a rather odd affair.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 6:05pm
That is the 49er FX that I was talking about, great rig. Would really like one for the big breeze, with 155kgs on board it would be way faster than a normal 49er in over 20 knots!

Out of all the boats I think this is the best option
49er GBR5

teamfletcherandsign.co.uk
Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site
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Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
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Posts: 852
Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

<<snip>> but surely the point is by which metric are you defining the best? <<snip>> Depending on what shows up it 'may' be immediately obvious which ones are the also-rans but the ultimate deciding factors for the winner could be entirely unrelated to sailing performance.
 
Agree totally.
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