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Boats for sale
| Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
New ladies skiff |
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SoggyBadger 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 26 Oct 10 Location: The Wild Wood Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
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 Topic: New ladies skiffPosted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:04pm |
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"True one design"? The Mirror is a one design class. All this "true one design" crap is just snake-oil put out by the SMOD builders. I'm surprised that you're gullible enough to swallow it. |
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Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB |
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ham4sand
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 27 Jul 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 452 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:04pm |
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that just went from looking like a pretty bit of kit on the water, to one of the ugliest boats iv seen on a trailor, how little freeboard has that got!!!!!!! and where will the crew stand when theres no wind, the bow will sink!!!
although it probably is the angle that makes it look bad, got any pictures from 45 degrees ish??
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this |
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Ruscoe
Really should get out more
Joined: 12 Jan 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1514 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:15pm |
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Told ya, i agree completely i think its a horrible looking thing. But each to everyones own, its not designed by or for me and one mans dog is anothers darling.
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29er397
Really should get out more
Joined: 02 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 505 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:25pm |
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Yup, these photo's don't really do great things for it, unfortunately i have no more. I actually quite like the look of it personally, I guess the only time to really judge is in the flesh, or actually having a sail - I'm still vying to get a go to make a real judgement. I sailed the XX and despised it though, and this looks by far and a way nicer to sail.
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gbrspratt
Posting king 
Joined: 26 Sep 11 Location: Felixstowe Online Status: Offline Posts: 170 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:26pm |
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if fast/cool boats don't encourage people to sail how come the rs feva fleet is so big? - because it looks cool and is fast and has similarities to 29ers, 49ers, 14s, 18ftskiffs? I think there's a difference in our paradigms. I'd say the Feva's success proves exactly why we SHOULDN'T be putting too much emphasis on speed. As others have already noted, the Feva is a great boat, but it's not a particularly fast boat. Compared to much older classes like the Flying 11, Flying Ant, Cherub, VJ, JD or even the European L'Equipe the Feva is heavy, flex, small in sail area, unusual in having no trap, and not very fast. But as you point out, it's doing really well - perhaps BECAUSE it's heavy, cheap, tough and not really all that quick, which means it's easy to sail and own. I'm actually a bit flummoxed to know in what way the Feva resembles a classic Skiff, 14 or 9er, apart from the assy. kids want to sail in them because the trend is that way- lead by the yachting press and AC, volvo, minis. What trend? The number of high performance dinghies attending Uk nationals is going down, as a proportion of the total. The proportion of sailors sailing heavy cruiser/racer leadmines is going up. The popular UK dinghy classes are now fractionally SLOWER than they were in 1975 (in terms of basic design, that is). You can't say that there's a trend towards performance when the most popular classes are SLOWER than they were 35 years ago! And the circulation of yachting mags is nosediving. The Volvo fleet is about 25% as big as it used to be. The minis are small and economical., The AC looks like being about 30% as big as it was when it was sailed in slow, heavy, alloy 12 Metres. So (apart from the fairly cheap Minis) all of those sectors of the sport are facing nosediving numbers - surely they indicate where we SHOULDN'T be going? everyone wants to go faster doesn't matter what sport Sorry, but in most other major sports, there are massive restrictions on going faster. F1 cars are ruled by a huge number of restrictions - many things in a Corolla aren't allowed in Vettel's Red Bull. Try turning up to a swimming race with flippers and a bouyant suit - you'll be faster but you won't be allowed in the water. Try turning up to golf with a ball that can go further than the rules allow, or turning up to a bicycle race in a streamlined bike that will go miles faster than Wiggins' - you won't be allowed at the start line. Other sports ban a huge number of speed-increasing designs. People want to go faster WITHIN RULES THAT MAKE THE SPORT EASIER AND CHEAPER THAN IT WOULD BE IF RULES WERE LOOSER. TV brings money which brings development which filters down to club level, Where's your proof? The sole thing that came out of televised high performance racing (IIRC) is the assy. The class that created that ended up with just 6 boats and is no longer alive in its former form.... hardly an example to follow. how many regular people have carbon framed bikes? thanks to Chris Boardman & Lotus developing the Olympic bike? Boardman's Lotus bikes were banned years ago. The bikes that are allowed nowadays in the Games or the Tour are heavily restricted in design. They are about as fast (compared to the bikes you can build outside the rules) as a Finn is compared to a Moth, and their basic design age is about the same as the Finn. Hoy isn't even allowed gears on the bike he uses in the Games. Team Sky ride on bikes that are specifically restricted to have the same general design as bikes of the 1930s. So bike racing is a perfect example of a sport that has introduced massive restrictions on design in order to ensure that the pros use stuff that Joe and Joanna Average can use to ride to work. How many dinghy classes allow high modular yarns in sails as developed by AC campaigns (kevlar cloth first used/developed by hoods in the 70's)? I can't see the relevance, with respect. Hood developed those yarns on a class that was then 70 years old and even by the standards of the day, slow and heavy. If what you are trying to say is that technological advances can come from heavily restricted, ancient, slow and comparatively simple classes like 12 Metres - which is what in fact occurred - then you are of course right. Likewise after every major sporting event wimbledon, world cups, the open, 6 nations, the ashes. there is a spike in people joining their local club, sure most will drop out after a week or month but 1 maybe 2 will stay commited and active in their new sport????? Notice anything about those major events you just listed? In all of them, the top pros use pretty much (or exactly) the same rules as the amateurs use......... that's one point of big sports, the pros race under the same rules as the amateurs - so why shouldn't Olympic sailing? And many of those big events are in sports that are LESS popular than sports that don't have big-ticket events. There are many studies that show that there is not normally any lasting significant increase in participation as a result of hosting major events. This is pretty well accepted among the academics who actually spend time studying these things (like some of the guys in my Sports Business faculty). Here's some media and academic opinions that indicate that even hosting the Games may not increase participation levels; So the whole "we need big events" thing is just another example where the reality isn't living up to the hype. Publicity about elitist events does not seem to increase participation. Which is NOT saying we shouldn't have radical boats (I race them myself) but it is IS saying that we shouldn't believe that emphasising them will make the sport more popular - and we should be aware that presenting an elitist image can backfire. i think your missing the point.... kids see high performance boats out sailing and go "hey that looks cool, how do i do that?" the answer is to start of at the bottom. in a mirror or feva or what ever. Showing AC and olympics just puts it out there even more for kids to see and start off at the bottom of ladder.
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fudheid
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 21 Apr 11 Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E Online Status: Offline Posts: 241 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:42pm |
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if fast/cool boats don't encourage people to sail how come the rs feva fleet is so big? - because it looks cool and is fast and has similarities to 29ers, 49ers, 14s, 18ftskiffs? I think there's a difference in our paradigms. I'd say the Feva's success proves exactly why we SHOULDN'T be putting too much emphasis on speed. As others have already noted, the Feva is a great boat, but it's not a particularly fast boat. Compared to much older classes like the Flying 11, Flying Ant, Cherub, VJ, JD or even the European L'Equipe the Feva is heavy, flex, small in sail area, unusual in having no trap, and not very fast. But as you point out, it's doing really well - perhaps BECAUSE it's heavy, cheap, tough and not really all that quick, which means it's easy to sail and own. easy to sail ?say that to the kids when they first get in them . Its doing well because of media coverage whether mags, online, great support from the manufacturer and i want to sail one of those Dad they look cool  I'm actually a bit flummoxed to know in what way the Feva resembles a classic Skiff, 14 or 9er, apart from the assy. Never said it resembled said it had similarities......check the front page of the RS feva site almost makes me want to sail one..... kids want to sail in them because the trend is that way- lead by the yachting press and AC, volvo, minis. What trend? The number of high performance dinghies attending Uk nationals is going down, as a proportion of the total. The proportion of sailors sailing heavy cruiser/racer leadmines is going up. The popular UK dinghy classes are now fractionally SLOWER than they were in 1975 (in terms of basic design, that is). You can't say that there's a trend towards performance when the most popular classes are SLOWER than they were 35 years ago! I know that seeing the AC45s at Plymouth made me want to go sailing - not in an AC45 but in my boat - it reminded me why sailing is such a great sport, teamwork,fitness,technical. Make it want you want at whatever level you are at...... And the circulation of yachting mags is nosediving. The Volvo fleet is about 25% as big as it used to be. The minis are small and economical., The AC looks like being about 30% as big as it was when it was sailed in slow, heavy, alloy 12 Metres. So (apart from the fairly cheap Minis) all of those sectors of the sport are facing nosediving numbers - surely they indicate where we SHOULDN'T be going? yes yachting mags etc are down, but interent mags and assoc. forums are on the rise, sailing has never been more abundant, why? someone must be spreading the news everyone wants to go faster doesn't matter what sport Sorry, but in most other major sports, there are massive restrictions on going faster. F1 cars are ruled by a huge number of restrictions - many things in a Corolla aren't allowed in Vettel's Red Bull. Try turning up to a swimming race with flippers and a bouyant suit Think the yanks did a few years back - well the suits anyway Try turning up to golf with a ball that can go further than the rules allow, or turning up to a bicycle race in a streamlined bike that will go miles faster than Wiggins' - you won't be allowed at the start line. All good points but they were banned after the advancement of speed. Yes but within the rules the designers and crew work to improve the performance or lightness to give them an advantage, that wasn't my point. In sport people at the bottom want the same gear as the people at the top because they perceive that the same gear will give them the same advantage. Otherwise everyone of us would be using the same sailmakers... when i tried tennis i bought the same manufacturers racket that Mcenroe used. Other sports ban a huge number of speed-increasing designs. People want to go faster WITHIN RULES THAT MAKE THE SPORT EASIER AND CHEAPER THAN IT WOULD BE IF RULES WERE LOOSER. TV brings money which brings development which filters down to club level, Where's your proof? The sole thing that came out of televised high performance racing (IIRC) is the assy. The class that created that ended up with just 6 boats and is no longer alive in its former form.... hardly an example to follow. Football. rugby, cricket....Surely it comes down to the RYA making sure that the money filters down? how many regular people have carbon framed bikes? thanks to Chris Boardman & Lotus developing the Olympic bike? Boardman's Lotus bikes were banned years ago. The bikes that are allowed nowadays in the Games or the Tour are heavily restricted in design. They are about as fast (compared to the bikes you can build outside the rules) as a Finn is compared to a Moth, and their basic design age is about the same as the Finn. Hoy isn't even allowed gears on the bike he uses in the Games. Team Sky ride on bikes that are specifically restricted to have the same general design as bikes of the 1930s. So bike racing is a perfect example of a sport that has introduced massive restrictions on design in order to ensure that the pros use stuff that Joe and Joanna Average can use to ride to work. Maybe, but in my family out of the 8 people who own bikes 4 of them own carbon frames, they use them to cycle to work or the shops, you can by them on the cycle to work scheme....North sails are deveolping 3dl for use on dinghies. The restrictions are to control costs so the rich countries do NOT get an advantage.....joe and joeanna just gain the benefits of all the research.why SPEED How many dinghy classes allow high modular yarns in sails as developed by AC campaigns (kevlar cloth first used/developed by hoods in the 70's)? I can't see the relevance, with respect. Hood developed those yarns on a class that was then 70 years old and even by the standards of the day, slow and heavy. It was devolpment to make boats go faster, was only seenm on the biggest and most expensive boats - but is now seen on everything, even replica laser sails made in pentex why? SPEED If what you are trying to say is that technological advances can come from heavily restricted, ancient, slow and comparatively simple classes like 12 Metres - which is what in fact occurred - then you are of course right. Likewise after every major sporting event wimbledon, world cups, the open, 6 nations, the ashes. there is a spike in people joining their local club, sure most will drop out after a week or month but 1 maybe 2 will stay commited and active in their new sport????? Notice anything about those major events you just listed? In all of them, the top pros use pretty much (or exactly) the same rules as the amateurs use......... that's one point of big sports, the pros race under the same rules as the amateurs - so why shouldn't Olympic sailing? NOT DISPUTING THIS, agree and think the symmetric Star class should stay, more people sail with symmetrics so why throw them unless your a female. And many of those big events are in sports that are LESS popular than sports that don't have big-ticket events. There are many studies that show that there is not normally any lasting significant increase in participation as a result of hosting major events. This is pretty well accepted among the academics who actually spend time studying these things (like some of the guys in my Sports Business faculty).Your the expert. Lasting significant increase - the point i make is after the games a our club youth fleet is bursting and then dies down if we get one more boat racing, just one My club would be happy.  Here's some media and academic opinions that indicate that even hosting the Games may not increase participation levels; So the whole "we need big events" thing is just another example where the reality isn't living up to the hype. you don't think that having british sailors doing well in the games brings the sport to the attention of the masses? I think Ainslie was on just about the front page of every rag in the country when they gave the team, with media all over you only have to see how many watched AC45 via youtube to realise that accessibility is key, but having a class that brings revenue to the RYA/ISAF must be a good thing? Edited by fudheid - 21 Oct 11 at 1:47pm |
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fudheid
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 21 Apr 11 Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E Online Status: Offline Posts: 241 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:44pm |
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forgot to say, think the Aura looks good.
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SoggyBadger
Really should get out more
Joined: 26 Oct 10 Location: The Wild Wood Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 2:19pm |
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Ainslie certainly gets the headlines and that's got to be positive for the sport. But we should also note that his Finn is somewhat different from the 49er, 29erXX, Aura etc. Is that part of the reason for his media profile? Does this show that we don't need these extreme designs?
It didn't make much of a ripple in the national media though. You need to be a bit cautious with those YouTube numbers as they could be watching from anywhere in the world.
It's certainly a good thing for those whose salaries are derived from the income (often the same people who make the decisions about which class to favour). |
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Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB |
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olly_love
Really should get out more
Joined: 18 Jan 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1145 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 2:33pm |
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the mirror isnt a true one design, because you can have different cut sails differnt hulls different foils differnt layouts, the feva is a what you get is what you sail boat, with a few options like a more powefull kicker. anyways back to the new boat. it looks intersting, but very low freeboard . would be interesting to see what its like at sea, upwind |
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TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala
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SoggyBadger
Really should get out more
Joined: 26 Oct 10 Location: The Wild Wood Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
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Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 2:53pm |
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Yes it is and always has been since I started sailing in the 1960s.
Makes no difference. It's a one design class. |
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Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB |
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