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fudheid View Drop Down
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New ladies skiff
    Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 9:24am

[/QUOTE]
There is simply no factual evidence I've ever seen to show that fast boats encourage more sailors, and unless someone can show us that evidence, arguably we shouldn't be throwing out the types of boat that lots more people actually sail. 

[/QUOTE]

if fast/cool boats don't encourage people to sail how come the rs feva fleet is so big? - because it looks cool and is fast and has similarities to 29ers, 49ers, 14s, 18ftskiffs? kids want to sail in them because the trend is that way- lead by the yachting press and AC, volvo, minis. everyone wants to go faster doesn't matter what sport TV brings money which brings development which filters down to club level, how many regular people have carbon framed bikes? thanks to Chris Boardman & Lotus developing the Olympic bike?
How many dinghy classes allow high modular yarns in sails as developed by AC campaigns (kevlar cloth first used/developed by hoods in the 70's)?
Likewise after every major sporting event wimbledon, world cups, the open, 6 nations, the ashes. there is a spike in people joining their local club, sure most will drop out after a week or month but 1 maybe 2 will stay commited and active in their new sport?????
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johnreekie1980 View Drop Down
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Posts: 91 		Post Options Post Options   Quote johnreekie1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 9:26am

All this argument about throwing existing classes out of the olympics doesn't really stack up. Lets face it where are the large UK fleets of yinglings, europes, and the new match racing boats. The laser radial is the only commonly sailed boat in the womens fleet and most of those are probably sailed by people who are not travelling to major national or worldwide championships. When I windsurfed I did not go down a beach to see a single olympic set of kit in sight. Olympic sailing is now a professional sport where talent, money (Lotery funding is and option here) and a dedication from a relatively young age is required to succeed.

A previous poster hit the nail on the head with his F1 analogy that the Bernie Ecclestone sees F1 as a great success. How many of the 145,000 people sailing want to make money sailing versus those happy to spend their money on their pastime. The olympics is a platform for olympians to show their athleticism and skill and more importantly the spread of events allows the general sport of sailing to be represented (windsurfing/monohulls/multihulls/keelboats.etc) including athletes of different shapes and sizes.
 
If Ben Ainslie goes to the Oppy Nationals do the kids competing think he is cool and want to meet him? I would think so and the olympics is a great showcase for our sport but I am man enough to admit that I neither have the dedication or interest in competing against full time pros as a pastime sailor.  
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 10:51am
On which planet is a Feva fast?
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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fudheid View Drop Down
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

On which planet is a Feva fast?
Ha got me LOL

a 6 year olds faced with with wooden oppies and mirrors?
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

On which planet is a Feva fast?


Or even cool? It's a 10th rate piece of excrement which kids are being bullied/brainwashed into sailing IME.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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olly_love View Drop Down
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Posts: 1145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote olly_love Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 11:08am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

On which planet is a Feva fast?


Or even cool? It's a 10th rate piece of excrement which kids are being bullied/brainwashed into sailing IME.


when the option is a mirror, it makes a nice true one design, also its pretty cheap for parents, as there are no expensive foil upgrades or new sail cuts. also there isnt anything else like that for kids so its perfect for its pourpose,
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rogue View Drop Down
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 11:17am
Originally posted by olly_love


Originally posted by SoggyBadger


Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

On which planet is a Feva fast?
Or even cool? It's a 10th rate piece of excrement which kids are being bullied/brainwashed into sailing IME.
when the option is a mirror, it makes a nice true one design, also its pretty cheap for parents, as there are no expensive foil upgrades or new sail cuts. also there isnt anything else like that for kids so its perfect for its pourpose,
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by olly_love

Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

On which planet is a Feva fast?


Or even cool? It's a 10th rate piece of excrement which kids are being bullied/brainwashed into sailing IME.


when the option is a mirror, it makes a nice true one design, also its pretty cheap for parents, as there are no expensive foil upgrades or new sail cuts. also there isnt anything else like that for kids so its perfect for its pourpose,
Spot on Olly, its a lovely little boat.  Why the hell would any child pick a cadet or Mirror over one? The only reason would be that their mates sail them.  I think the Feva does it exactly what was asked of it to a very high standard.  Its also, as Olly says cheap for the parents too.

Cant be a bad thing IMHO

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by fudheid


There is simply no factual evidence I've ever seen to show that fast boats encourage more sailors, and unless someone can show us that evidence, arguably we shouldn't be throwing out the types of boat that lots more people actually sail. 

[/QUOTE]

if fast/cool boats don't encourage people to sail how come the rs feva fleet is so big? - because it looks cool and is fast and has similarities to 29ers, 49ers, 14s, 18ftskiffs?

I think there's a difference in our paradigms. I'd say the Feva's success proves exactly why we SHOULDN'T be putting too much emphasis on speed. As others have already noted, the Feva is a great boat, but it's not a particularly fast boat. Compared to much older classes like the Flying 11, Flying Ant, Cherub, VJ, JD or even the European L'Equipe the Feva is heavy, flex, small in sail area, unusual in having no trap, and not very fast. But as you point out, it's doing really well - perhaps BECAUSE it's heavy, cheap, tough and not really all that quick, which means it's easy to sail and own.

I'm actually a bit flummoxed to know in what way the Feva resembles a classic Skiff, 14 or 9er, apart from the assy. 

 kids want to sail in them because the trend is that way- lead by the yachting press and AC, volvo, minis.

What trend? The number of high performance dinghies attending Uk nationals is going down, as a proportion of the total. The proportion of sailors sailing heavy cruiser/racer leadmines is going up. The popular UK dinghy classes are now fractionally SLOWER than they were in 1975 (in terms of basic design, that is).  You can't say that there's a trend towards performance when the most popular classes are SLOWER than they were 35 years ago!

And the circulation of yachting mags is nosediving. The Volvo fleet is about 25% as big as it used to be. The minis are small and economical., The AC looks like being about 30% as big as it was when it was sailed in slow, heavy, alloy 12 Metres.

So (apart from the fairly cheap Minis) all of those sectors of the sport are facing nosediving numbers - surely they indicate where we SHOULDN'T be going?

 everyone wants to go faster doesn't matter what sport 

Sorry, but in most other major sports, there are massive restrictions on going faster. F1 cars are ruled by a huge number of restrictions - many things in a Corolla aren't allowed in Vettel's Red Bull. Try turning up to a swimming race with flippers and a bouyant suit - you'll be faster but you won't be allowed in the water. Try turning up to golf with a ball that can go further than the rules allow, or turning up to a bicycle race in a streamlined bike that will go miles faster than Wiggins' - you won't be allowed at the start line.

Other sports ban a huge number of speed-increasing designs. People want to go faster WITHIN RULES THAT MAKE THE SPORT EASIER AND CHEAPER THAN IT WOULD BE IF RULES WERE LOOSER. 

TV brings money which brings development which filters down to club level,

Where's your proof? The sole thing that came out of televised high performance racing (IIRC) is the assy. The class that created that ended up with just 6 boats and is no longer alive in its former form.... hardly an example to follow. 

 how many regular people have carbon framed bikes? thanks to Chris Boardman & Lotus developing the Olympic bike?

Boardman's Lotus bikes were banned years ago. The bikes that are allowed nowadays in the Games or the Tour are heavily restricted in design. They are about as fast (compared to the bikes you can build outside the rules) as a Finn is compared to a Moth, and their basic design age is about the same as the Finn. Hoy isn't even allowed gears on the bike he uses in the Games. Team Sky ride on bikes that are specifically restricted to have the same general design as bikes of the 1930s.

So  bike racing is a perfect example of a sport that has introduced massive restrictions on design in order to ensure that the pros use stuff that Joe and Joanna Average can use to ride to work.

How many dinghy classes allow high modular yarns in sails as developed by AC campaigns (kevlar cloth first used/developed by hoods in the 70's)?

I can't see the relevance, with respect.  Hood developed those yarns on a class that was then 70 years old and even by the standards of the day, slow and heavy.

If what you are trying to say is that technological advances can come from heavily restricted, ancient, slow and comparatively simple classes like 12 Metres - which is what in fact occurred - then you are of course right. 

Likewise after every major sporting event wimbledon, world cups, the open, 6 nations, the ashes. there is a spike in people joining their local club, sure most will drop out after a week or month but 1 maybe 2 will stay commited and active in their new sport?????

[/QUOTE]

Notice anything about those major events you just listed? In all of them, the top pros use pretty much (or exactly) the same rules as the amateurs use......... that's one point of big sports, the pros race under the same rules as the amateurs - so why shouldn't Olympic sailing?

And many of those big events are in sports that are LESS popular than sports that don't have big-ticket events. There are many studies that show that there is not normally any lasting significant increase in participation as a result of hosting major events. This is pretty well accepted among the academics who actually spend time studying these things (like some of the guys in my Sports Business faculty).

Here's some media and academic opinions that indicate that even hosting the Games may not increase participation levels;



So the whole "we need big events" thing is just another example where the reality isn't living up to the hype. Publicity about elitist events does not seem to increase participation.
Which is NOT saying we shouldn't have radical boats (I race them myself) but it is IS saying that we shouldn't believe that emphasising them will make the sport more popular - and we should be aware that presenting an elitist image can backfire.

Edited by Chris 249 - 21 Oct 11 at 1:04pm
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29er397 View Drop Down
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Posts: 505 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 29er397 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 12:59pm
I've sailed an MPS along side the aura a couple of times, as far as I can tell it seems to stop below 4 knots, probably due to lack of rocker. Maintains a similar speed to the MPS in sub planing conditions, then takes off  once its on the plane. 

They've tested the boat with a variety of sailors - it seemed to go really well with two girls on board - and in a broad range of conditions. Apparently they've had it out in some decent waves and the bow hasn't been a problem, though i haven't seen that myself.

So far it doesn't have a T-foil, I don't think it will do though don't quote me on that. The racks are still the sexy carbon ones, not the MPS ones as someone said earlier. But this is still a prototype, who knows what the final boat will be like.

There must be some blurb about Peter H on the ovi's website. As far as i know he's a relatively recent graduate of newcastle uni and has been working for Ovi's ever since.

Ovi's had asked us to 'keep it under our hats' but now that they've put it in the public domain, Here's a couple of photos i took on the sly, not great ones, but better than nothing...




Edited by 29er397 - 21 Oct 11 at 1:26pm
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