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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by ham4sand

i do think that the golf analogy is a bit rubbish. if there was only one type of equipment, for argument call it a laser, i wouldnt still be sailing

Yeah, but if you didn't sail and I didn't sail, yet we were replaced by 10 people who DID sail because the sport seemed cheaper, easier and more accessible, then arguably the sport would be stronger.

But I never said that the sport SHOULD ban or discourage high-performance classes, which are fantastic - I've spent a lot of time on very fast kit myself and loved it. The point is that the repeated claims to the effect that the future of the sport is fast boats, or that we should promote the sport best by highlighting radical classes, doesn't seem to have any basis in reality.

Has anyone EVER produced an evidence-based argument that shows we should be chucking "mainstream" classes out of the limelight in favour of faster boats? Yep, we get the old "the IOC wants higher ratings" line, but that's never backed up by evidence (as far as I have seen) that faster boats get more TV. And there's no evidence that "radical" boats are the future (they are a small minority EVERYWHERE, even when they get massive commercial and club support), or that bringing in skiff types won't hurt the other things the IOC requires from Olympic sports, like strong universal appeal.

We've got hype, but it's just empty without facts - especially when you can produce a strong argument to say that what the sport needs is more concentration on the accessible boats that the vast majority of people actually sail.

And it IS a fact that there are many sports in which the pros use gear similar to the stuff the average competitor uses that ARE more popular than sailing. That's not rubbish, that's the truth. If those sports that make specific rules and efforts to make pros use what amateurs can use are wrong, why are they so much more popular than sailing?

If we are goiing to risk hurting the sport and its place in the Games and chucking out established classes, shouldn't we have at least an evidence-based reason for doing so?


Edited by Chris 249 - 20 Oct 11 at 1:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 2:38pm

Evidence based reasoning?!!

Are you mad sir!!  Next you'll be telling us that we SHOULDN'T believe everything that's printed in the Sun paper.  
I'm afraid this is a forum and NOT a place for fact based decision making!  You clearly haven't got the hang of this at all.  

Wink

Doug


Edited by Doug.H - 20 Oct 11 at 2:39pm
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fudheid View Drop Down
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=ham4sand]


Has anyone EVER produced an evidence-based argument that shows we should be chucking "mainstream" classes out of the limelight in favour of faster boats? Yep, we get the old "the IOC wants higher ratings" line, but that's never backed up by evidence (as far as I have seen) that faster boats get more TV. And there's no evidence that "radical" boats are the future (they are a small minority EVERYWHERE, even when they get massive commercial and club support), or that bringing in skiff types won't hurt the other things the IOC requires from Olympic sports, like strong universal appeal.


I think the ac45's where on TV they count as a new, fast, sexy format? Surely F1 cars encourage boys to kart and take up cheaper motorsports, why then can sailing not.
i can remember seeing 18ftrs when i started (before they had wings) and dreaming of sailing them - it took a while but it encouraged me and my crew who was a windsurfer into dinghies.....

doesn't matter what if more people sail whoop whoop!
PS i don't think it shouldn't be split into girls boat, why not mixed like so many other dinghies
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Posts: 134 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stevie_GTI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by johnreekie1980

I like the look of the boat and think it is a welcome addition as i did not think that the 29erxx really had the weight carrying capability or the length for the new rig. I would not like to see a 800 at the games as I don't think it is a revolutionary design that the 49er was in its day. God luck to you ovingtons.
The RS800 isn't even being put forward for the slot
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 5:32pm
why all this concern about tv ratings? I just hope they pick the girls something fun.  The 49er looks like fun to me, bl**dy difficult to get right as I understand it (never sailed one) but none the less, a bit of a grin, girls deserve something decently quick after the Yngling  Dead
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Posts: 296 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=ham4sand]


Has anyone EVER produced an evidence-based argument that shows we should be chucking "mainstream" classes out of the limelight in favour of faster boats? Yep, we get the old "the IOC wants higher ratings" line, but that's never backed up by evidence (as far as I have seen) that faster boats get more TV. And there's no evidence that "radical" boats are the future (they are a small minority EVERYWHERE, even when they get massive commercial and club support), or that bringing in skiff types won't hurt the other things the IOC requires from Olympic sports, like strong universal appeal.


I think the ac45's where on TV they count as a new, fast, sexy format? Surely F1 cars encourage boys to kart and take up cheaper motorsports, why then can sailing not.
i can remember seeing 18ftrs when i started (before they had wings) and dreaming of sailing them - it took a while but it encouraged me and my crew who was a windsurfer into dinghies.....

doesn't matter what if more people sail whoop whoop!
PS i don't think it shouldn't be split into girls boat, why not mixed like so many other dinghies
+1! Brilliant!
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 11 at 9:08pm
Two things. Where are all these female skiff sailors, all in squads and out of sight I suppose. I have known adventurous girls who were up for anything (in sailing), I produced one, but they usually sail with male helms. Are there any skiff or high performance female helms on this forum? Surely we should be looking for mixed high performance sailing, which ever sex is at the front? That would be representative.

Vance Packard who wrote the classic book on advertising "The Hidden Persuaders" in the 60's said that new car showrooms always plonked a sexy convertible in the midst of boring sedans because it drew people in (mainly male) who then bought the family sedan. Perhaps sexy skiffs encourage greater participation in the sport.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Menace

Originally posted by fudheid

Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=ham4sand]


Has anyone EVER produced an evidence-based argument that shows we should be chucking "mainstream" classes out of the limelight in favour of faster boats? Yep, we get the old "the IOC wants higher ratings" line, but that's never backed up by evidence (as far as I have seen) that faster boats get more TV. And there's no evidence that "radical" boats are the future (they are a small minority EVERYWHERE, even when they get massive commercial and club support), or that bringing in skiff types won't hurt the other things the IOC requires from Olympic sports, like strong universal appeal.


I think the ac45's where on TV they count as a new, fast, sexy format? Surely F1 cars encourage boys to kart and take up cheaper motorsports, why then can sailing not.
i can remember seeing 18ftrs when i started (before they had wings) and dreaming of sailing them - it took a while but it encouraged me and my crew who was a windsurfer into dinghies.....

doesn't matter what if more people sail whoop whoop!
PS i don't think it shouldn't be split into girls boat, why not mixed like so many other dinghies
+1! Brilliant!

Sorry, but that's exactly the sort of baseless stuff I was talking about.

Formula 1 obviously DOESN'T encourage many boys (or girls, or adults) to get into karting or cheaper motorsports, because (as Sports England surveys show) not many people do those sports.

11, 600 people report that they go karting at least once a month. 13,500 people do "motorsports" (not counting motorbikes). Compare that to the 145,000 people who go sailing at least once a month and you have to say that F1 is a complete failure in creating participation, and that motorsports should probably learn from sailing about how to get participation.

The same holds true for other sports. The high-profile racing bicycles are extremely heavily restricted (they are a bit like a Finn or Merlin in design restrictions) yet 3.75 million people go cycling at least once a month. Golf equipment has specific restrictions on performance ( you're not allowed to make a ball that goes further than current ones although it's easy to do so) and 1.4 million people play golf at least once a month. Swimming is tightly restricted, yet 5.5 million people go swimming once a month.

Sports where the pros face similar rules, restrictions and challenges to the amateurs get more participants - that's just a fact.

Don't forget, motorsport in the UK has a turnover of 6 billion pounds, so those 25,000 competitors are an incredibly LOW return in terms of competitors per pound. The entire British boating industry (including powerboats and small commercial craft) has a turnover less than half that, yet vastly more people are into boating. 

The "be like F1" concept is a complete failure in terms of getting people into the sport. The same is shown up down here in Oz. The states that have the biggest skiff fleets have the smallest proportion of people who sail. It's great if the 18 Foot Skiffs inspired you, but there's no evidence that the Skiff clubs get more juniors - in fact one 18 Footer club down here is truly struggling and the other gave up trying to get kids after repeated failures to keep a kid's class going. Some of the Skiff clubs have great junior fleets, but overall they certainly don't get more kids than non-Skiff clubs despite the fact that the Skiff clubs often have huge financial resources from tax relief, poker machines and bar sales to non-sailing members.

There is simply no factual evidence I've ever seen to show that fast boats encourage more sailors, and unless someone can show us that evidence, arguably we shouldn't be throwing out the types of boat that lots more people actually sail. 





Edited by Chris 249 - 21 Oct 11 at 2:02am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Doug.H


Evidence based reasoning?!!

Are you mad sir!!  Next you'll be telling us that we SHOULDN'T believe everything that's printed in the Sun paper.  
I'm afraid this is a forum and NOT a place for fact based decision making!  You clearly haven't got the hang of this at all.  

Wink

Doug

Good call - from now on, I'll just post vapour-based hype and pics of Page 3 girls! Big smile
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 8:50am
Things like Formula One are a success measured by people making money out of the sport.
Some people want that from sailing.
I don't. I'm happy for the media circus events to exist, but I don't want them adversly affecting amateur sailing.
Where the two come into conflict, amateur participation sport will suffer.
It's never going to be like marathon running, where any amateur can be in the same race and TV will make money from it.

That's a separate debate from skiffs vs more convetional dinghies.
Seeing a few youngsters really enjoying the performance of 29ers makes me certain that there is a future for fast asymmetric boats, for some people it's a better aspiration than tactical fleet racing in Wayfarers or whatever.
Things change slowly in sailing, the SMOD-asy boats of the nineties, including the 400, were a compromise that seemed right at the time, hence the trend has stalled. At some point, enough people will want to move on from that.
I'm not sure that there are very many trapeze helming female helms in the UK though? If you count up all those that have done an open meeting in RS800, 600, 700, contender, MPS, Cherub this year, I suspect you could get them all in a minibus. So I'm not sure why it should be an Olympic category.
I don't think other sports invent categories for the Olympics, don't they tend to adopt existing ones?

But give it 8 years and we could see real growth in this area, but there will need to be a twin wire yoof boat to bring young people in. Some countries are ahead of us with that, using the RS500.
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