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mole View Drop Down
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Posts: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proposed IRC Rule changes
    Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 10:28am
To see the details go here

One of the proposal is the revert back to the original method of rating of boats with spinnaker poles and bowsprits. i.e. and increase in rating if you have both.

We fitted a bowsprit to allow inexperienced crew fly an assymetric spinnaker and then subsequently attach and use the pole as required. It also makes gybing simpler.

This rule change will marginalise inexperienced and/or short handed crews.

Anecdotally, the use of spinnakers in IRC racing is seen as one of the biggest issues faced by owners considering getting a rating and sailing in IRC. As they know they will need an experienced foredeck crew who can handle the spinnaker. Anything that makes this easier has to be a good thing for potentially increasing IRC participation, which is in a slow decline.

I realise that for the top end boats a bowsprit could be seen as an advantage, without out any rating penalty. But the occasions when this would be the case and any advantage gained would be minimal when considering the impact of boats not competing in IRC.

I have posted my comment on the RORC rating site. If you agree, please do the same.

The Angry Mole
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 11 at 5:52pm
I can see your point but if you can always choose to run with just the sprit, however at the top end allowing both with no penalty is causing a real arms race with people getting expensive retrofit bowsprits and the associated sails (Code zeros etc.) and its also massively damaging the IRC staple of 30-40ft cruiser/racers.

At the end of the day if you are racing with inexperienced crew you are unlikely to be competitive anyway, so is a small rating change really a game ender for you?
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Posts: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 11 at 4:43pm
The cost argument doesn't add up in our case. We fitted a sprit and a brand new assymetric for less than £1000 on a 37ft boat.
As for racing for in-experienced crew, this is exactly what the IRC rules preclude, owners willing to take less experienced crews and train them for competitive IRC racing. At what point does IRC ratings allow for that? So owners who can find away to introduce crews to spinnaker handling in a series of steps has to be good. the ALL or NOTHING argument just discourages participation. 
But all this will be academic when there are so few IRC certificates that the rule disappears.
Dinghy clubs adjust the Portsmouth Yardstick to suit local conditions and in some cases clubs introduce 'personal' handicap systems to encourage the less experienced sailor to compete against championship winning crews. 
IRC will only remain successful if it encourages participation, AT ALL LEVELS, not just a select few with deep wallets.
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 11 at 9:32pm
How on earth did you get a bowsprit and kite for under a grand!? we got a quote of 4500 for a new kite alone on the j122 which wasnt cheap but i dont believe we could have got close to a grand! 
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 11 at 9:57am
Originally posted by mole

The cost argument doesn't add up in our case. We fitted a sprit and a brand new assymetric for less than £1000 on a 37ft boat.
As for racing for in-experienced crew, this is exactly what the IRC rules preclude, owners willing to take less experienced crews and train them for competitive IRC racing. At what point does IRC ratings allow for that? So owners who can find away to introduce crews to spinnaker handling in a series of steps has to be good. the ALL or NOTHING argument just discourages participation. 
But all this will be academic when there are so few IRC certificates that the rule disappears.
Dinghy clubs adjust the Portsmouth Yardstick to suit local conditions and in some cases clubs introduce 'personal' handicap systems to encourage the less experienced sailor to compete against championship winning crews. 
IRC will only remain successful if it encourages participation, AT ALL LEVELS, not just a select few with deep wallets.
 
Can you post the part of the rule changes that you refer to?  I had a quick look, but couldn't see it. 
 
But I have to say, I don't agree with you.  IRC racing has at its core a concept of "reducing unnecessary cost".  We have a perfectly good symmetrical spinnaker setup, but were starting to think of adding a small sprit and an A-sail, as it was going to be rating "free".  Certainly wouldn't have been cost free.
 
Your 1st post seems to indicate that you are relatively new to yacht racing, and training up new crew.  Which is highly commendable.  However, I firstly don't buy the argument that gybing using a sprit, then putting it back on a pole is easier - that just sounds like you're using a-sails and adding an unnecessary complication.  have you thought about ditching the pole and just going for the A-sails?  that should get you a drop in the rating. 
 
Also, no one has stopped you coming out racing with your setup.  Just, perhaps, impacted on your chances of winning.  If you're honest though, how much difference will it really make?  Whenever someone moans about their handicap, an interesting thing to do is to take their last 5 races and say "How much would your handicap have to change so that you went up or down 1 place?"  And "how much would your handicap have to change for you to have won?"
 
Don't forget that by having your setup, versus a standard setup, there will be situations where your boat is materially faster.  And IRC rates the boat, not the crew.
 
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mole View Drop Down
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Posts: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 11 at 5:00pm
@laser193713
I have to admit we were lucky with costs.
The kite was from ebay...no surprise. There were a lot of ex-Momentum kites on there last autumn, at a fraction of there new cost, so we bagged a bargain.
Our sprit was again from ebay, a piece of 5mm wall 6065 grade alloy tube. One of our crew is a machinist and I was an aircraft fitter in a previous life, so considerable saving on parts and labour. All the other parts we had including tack line so a minimal cost.

One of the practical reasons for the change is the configuration of our pulpit. Any attempt to tack down an assy just forward of the jib tack would have resulted in a pulpit departing at a rapid rate of knots.
So for us it was a relatively cost effective change that gave us a closer chance of competing with the experienced crews.

cheers

Mole
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 11 at 9:30am
Your argument doesnt stand up at all!  By restricting boats from carrying both a pole and a sprit they make it cheaper for the majority of boats which only have one or the other.  As for making gybing easier yes you do need to rig some kind of tack line if you a gybing A sails with a pole but you dont need a sprit for this, we simply tack our kites down to the jib tack ring at the base of the forestay which has a block on it for this purpose.  That works just fine, but gybing the A sail is a pig anyway in any breeze and gybing an S is much simpler in all winds, so why would you bother with the A sails with a beginner crew?

What is the boat out of interest? Did it always have A sails or just S sails to begin with? 
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 11 at 10:39am
Can you also indicate where in the 2012 proposed rule changes there is anything about spinnaker poles or bowsprits?!
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 11 at 10:52am
its in here,
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 11 at 6:57am
Originally posted by mole

IRC will only remain successful if it encourages participation, AT ALL LEVELS


I couldn't agree less. IRC is for high level club racing to sub-grand-prix level. It isn't for club-level owners taking their first steps into racing. For that, there is PY and the numerous other club yacht handicapping systems out there. That's precisely why many yacht clubs run PY and IRC divisions. One size does not fit all.
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