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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top dog
    Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by marky

Originally posted by paolochilds

Just for the records Geoff finished 3rd in 'that race' so average points that were less would also have not been fair on the other sailors. a flaw in the average points decision for sure
 
One of the reasons why Race Teams are now encouraged not to take out OCS or BFD boats at the the windward or leeward mark is so that in Redress situatons they have a finish place that can be re-given (other reasons are keeping the RIB's off the course, getting in the way, mistaken identity etc + for keeping the fleet in one place (not letting single boats sail home alone). In my opinion the Protest Committee should of given Geoff Carveth his third place back.
 
So if Geoff Carveth had sailed and recorded a (3rd place) finish in the race that he was erraneously black flagged in, then the race result should have stood. Irrespective of the way the last race was contested, What on earth were the P.C. thinking by giving average points redress!
Geoff could/should have appealed that decision at the time.
 
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 8:49pm
I'm not sure the PC would have been allowed, by the rules, to "reinstate" him to 3rd?
-_
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by alstorer

I'm not sure the PC would have been allowed, by the rules, to "reinstate" him to 3rd?
 
Yes they could.
Rule 64.2 Decisions on redress;
...to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement...
I think that would have covered it.
The average points option listed in Appendix A10, which JimC has already highlighted, should only have been used if the boat was 'coerced' into retiring under the erraneous black flag (without a recorded finish position).  Besides A10 option (c, would also be available to them.
 
As it stood, the redress given, left the boat affected vunerable in the final race.
 
Edit; Having looked at the results again, Geoff would have won the championship with the last race to spare. The best that Andy could have done is win the last race, with Geoff 4th or worse to equal the series score, but [for Andy to] lose out on countback.
 
 


Edited by Andymac - 09 Sep 11 at 7:47am
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 11 at 7:50am
Originally posted by Andymac

[
As it stood, the redress given, left the boat affected vunerable in the final race.
...Or indeed vunerable in any other remaining races, had he suffered say a gear failure and had a retirement.
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Tom J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tom J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 11 at 9:10am
A few points:
 
- I think the average points award was a strange one BUT once it had been made it shouldn't be changed after the last race. Taxi was about to put in a counter protest until he was told that the average ponts would include Geoff's discard. As a result he dropped it figuring a match race would always be an option. Thursdays tactics then became a matter of making sure no other boat could catch him, beating Geoff was not a necessity, being within 3 points of Tom Stewart was. If Geoff had been awarded his 3rd after Wednesdays race then Taxi would have been 2 points behind with 2 races to go and his priorities would have been different.
 
- Are people saying that someone who can sail Geoff Carveth down to below 28th (which was what was required) in a 60 strong fleet does not deserve to win? Yes Geoff won 4 of the 6 races they sailed but that isn't what counts.
 
- As for not being amateur, those people in the profession work hard monday to friday like anyone else. Sailmaking is generally not that well paid but it has a few other bonuses like cheaper kit / sails. Sailmakers still give up all of their spare weekends and holiday to go sailing and a lot of that spare time they are working anyway helping people out, delivering kit and looking for ways to improve the kit. If anyone with a decent salary lived on the same budget as a sailmaker and spent the difference in the salaries on new kit and going sailing all the time then they would be in a similar position but without all the stress of working while enjoying your hobby (i'm ignoring big boat stuff here as I don't know enough to comment).
 
- The name Taxi comes from when he was little and his ears stuck out, his mum said he looked like a taxi with the doors open.
 
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tickel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 11 at 8:08pm
You know the real question, irrespective of projecting ears or not is what qualities make some people so good? Does it require physical expertise? mental agility, learning, endurance, unflappability, what is it? It is obvious that some sailors are on a different planet to us mere mortals, look at Ben and his ears look normal. Some one must have an idea?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 11 at 12:45am
Originally posted by tickel

You know the real question, irrespective of projecting ears or not is what qualities make some people so good? Does it require physical expertise? mental agility, learning, endurance, unflappability, what is it? 

A general feeling of inadequacy and or an inferiority complex, coupled to good physical skills and brainpower, plus the time and finance to dedicate what the character feels is enough effort to practise sufficiently to compensate with his/her opinion of his better 'peers' in so doing over compensation results, the rest becomes addictive.
Being born in the early spring also appears to help, never have managed to work out why that is, but it does seem to have an inordinately disproportionate no at the front of all sorts of sports.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 11 at 7:12am
so thats why i'm not good enough then, i was born in June. Blame my parents. And my ears don't stick out either. Thanks GRF for helping explain that
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 11 at 10:15am
from MR forum: "I thought you might like to see ISAF's response to the following question.
A 001 Q&A 2007-008
Revised: 12 January 2009
Question 1
Is it a violation of Rule 2 if a competitor attempts to slow another boat's progress in a race by
covering or limiting its freedom to start, tack or jibe if this behaviour is not aimed at staying ahead
of this competitor in a race or a series of races, but instead is purely aimed at skewing the
competitor's result for the worse.
Answer 1
Yes.
For the purpose of ISAF Case 78, a race or series is restricted to those races governed by a notice
of race as published by the organizing authority for the race under consideration.

All very interesting! "

Edited by ob1 - 12 Sep 11 at 10:36am
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 11 at 10:30am
OB1 I think if you are going to copy posts fromt he Merlin Froum you should copy the rest where its debated.  What i will say is why is sailing someone down the fleet unfair?  If the rules are not broken and you just defensively cover someone why is this 'Unfair'  Its a tacktick used in other sports, so why not sailing?? 

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