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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 7:32pm
My view is that Roth simply broke Port vs stbd and if they had SAILED THE BOAT CORRECTLY they would have managed to avoid. 
 
It's a well know tactic that if windy and need a bear-off you DO NOT blow the Jib; You dump the mainsail+traveller and bear off; then ease the jib.  Leaving the jib hard on pushes the bows away from the wind; stalls the slot as the main is eased and makes it easier.  
 
Roth simply sailed badly and thus broke P VS S.  Simple.  If they had dumped main and traveller and left the jib; they would have made it.  They were only a few feet away from making it anyway (looks like they hit somewhere around the back beam??).
 
 
If I had been on the protest ctte (Anyone know who was??) I would have been DSQing Roth for not avoiding the collision.  Poor boat handling does not exonerate you!
 
 
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Posts: 739 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ASok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 8:50pm
+1

I thought that once you had made the tack onto starboard you were right of way boat. Art had become starboard boat regardless of whether he'd accelerated out of the tack or not. Roth had sufficient time and space to avoid, but didn't.

I'm slightly confused by the decisions. Hoping that this discussion may enlighten me.
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laser4000 View Drop Down
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Posts: 589 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by ASok

+1

I thought that once you had made the tack onto starboard you were right of way boat. Art had become starboard boat regardless of whether he'd accelerated out of the tack or not. Roth had sufficient time and space to avoid, but didn't.

I'm slightly confused by the decisions. Hoping that this discussion may enlighten me.


You're pretty much right..

Once Artemis's tack is completed (i.e on a close-hauled course) she's acquired right of way (rule 13), she initially needs to give Rothschild room to keep clear (rule 15) (and not really relevant with these position's). Rothschild needs only to start to respond once Artemis's tack is completed - if she does what she can to keep clear and there's still a crash then Artemis has tacked too close, if not then Rothschild is in the wrong. 

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

Its interesting but the chat on the quay after was that only 1 neutral skipper (if you can call any skipper in the neutral) viewed it as a 50/50


Be curious what the others thought?
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:55pm
I firmly believe that had Roth thrown the boat into a tack they would have avoided, or as Simon says, blown the traveller and dipped them. I'd be interested to hear who was on the protest comm. and why they made the decision they did, but if there is a way of avoiding a collision, it needs to be taken to avoid infringing rule 10 and I dont believe a sensible or right decision was made by the crew of Roth.
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by laser4000

[QUOTE=ASok]+1   

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)


How do you figure that? They clearly begin bearing away before Art is down to close hauled. Also its very easy to say they should have done X,Y,Z  but in the heat of the moment everyone makes mistakes. These boats are notoriously difficult to bear away in breeze, something which weve see in loads of past events. Clearly they tried to avoid, I dont think anyone that hasnt sailed these boats can pick apart their attempts because you simply dont know how they handle. 

At the end of the day the protest committee who will have far more evidence that we have and are way more experienced in these boats handling characteristics decided that Roth made adequate attempts to avoid so I dont really think we can question that.
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 7:47am
The others very much thought Roth was in the wrong....but its hard with these guys to get a neutral opinion simply because of the scoring system...there is a massive penalty IF you cause a collision.
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 7:53am
Originally posted by Quagers

Originally posted by laser4000

[QUOTE=ASok]+1   

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)


How do you figure that? They clearly begin bearing away before Art is down to close hauled. Also its very easy to say they should have done X,Y,Z  but in the heat of the moment everyone makes mistakes. These boats are notoriously difficult to bear away in breeze, something which weve see in loads of past events. Clearly they tried to avoid, I dont think anyone that hasnt sailed these boats can pick apart their attempts because you simply dont know how they handle. 

At the end of the day the protest committee who will have far more evidence that we have and are way more experienced in these boats handling characteristics decided that Roth made adequate attempts to avoid so I dont really think we can question that.
 
Actually the timings show the complete opposite
 
Its interesting that you argue that these boats are difficult to bear away yet you ignore the argument that they should have started the bear away when they saw the tack starting thus removing the 6 second delay. What is more interesting is that on Thursday the umpires were in better positions to judge these manouvres and were penalising anything that looked closed. IMHO if they taken this approach it would have saved 1 extreme 40 from the knackers yard (Artemis got written off) and saved a bit of carbon on the front of Roth
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 8:24am
Thats because im sure they thought they had no need to bear away, I imagine the thought process was something like

'Art is tacking, they'll probably get across our bow then we'll tack'

'ohh sh*t they've ballsed it up dump dump dump'

Why would you start to bear away for a boat you think is going to cross? Only when the situation then changes which happens when Art stalls would consider it, and I think they did react the moment it became clear that was the case.
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Quagers

Thats because im sure they thought they had no need to bear away, I imagine the thought process was something like

'Art is tacking, they'll probably get across our bow then we'll tack'

'ohh sh*t they've ballsed it up dump dump dump'

Why would you start to bear away for a boat you think is going to cross? Only when the situation then changes which happens when Art stalls would consider it, and I think they did react the moment it became clear that was the case.
 
They began to react Yes; and sailed the boat badly and caused a collision.  IF they had sailed the boat correctly they would have cleard them.  They did not dump enough main+ traveller AND they dumped the jib - they sailed poorly - Should be DSQ.  
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