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Extreme 40 crash decision
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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 10:46pm
Damn guys: how clear a case of tacking in someone's water do you need?

GE had Artemis pinned on the tack they were on: unable to tack before GE without infringing. I believe its a fairly standard match racing tactic.

It happens to me from time to time club racing in the Canoe - have to go a distance beyond the windward mark because there's a boat behind and to windward that I won't clear in the time it takes me to *reliably* tack the canoe and get up to speed.
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Quagers View Drop Down
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That doesn't exonerate Art though? You said yourself that Roth should have started avoiding when Art starts to tack, if that was the only way to avoid collision then Art has tacked too close because Roth shouldn't need to start to take action until the tacking boat has reached close hauled.
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Quagers

So you would have DSQ'd both Art and Roth?
 
No DSQ Roth for not avoiding the collision.  Roth sailed poorly and that resulted in the colission. 
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 8:48pm
So you would have DSQ'd both Art and Roth?
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Quagers

Thats because im sure they thought they had no need to bear away, I imagine the thought process was something like

'Art is tacking, they'll probably get across our bow then we'll tack'

'ohh sh*t they've ballsed it up dump dump dump'

Why would you start to bear away for a boat you think is going to cross? Only when the situation then changes which happens when Art stalls would consider it, and I think they did react the moment it became clear that was the case.
 
They began to react Yes; and sailed the boat badly and caused a collision.  IF they had sailed the boat correctly they would have cleard them.  They did not dump enough main+ traveller AND they dumped the jib - they sailed poorly - Should be DSQ.  
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 8:24am
Thats because im sure they thought they had no need to bear away, I imagine the thought process was something like

'Art is tacking, they'll probably get across our bow then we'll tack'

'ohh sh*t they've ballsed it up dump dump dump'

Why would you start to bear away for a boat you think is going to cross? Only when the situation then changes which happens when Art stalls would consider it, and I think they did react the moment it became clear that was the case.
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Quagers

Originally posted by laser4000

[QUOTE=ASok]+1   

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)


How do you figure that? They clearly begin bearing away before Art is down to close hauled. Also its very easy to say they should have done X,Y,Z  but in the heat of the moment everyone makes mistakes. These boats are notoriously difficult to bear away in breeze, something which weve see in loads of past events. Clearly they tried to avoid, I dont think anyone that hasnt sailed these boats can pick apart their attempts because you simply dont know how they handle. 

At the end of the day the protest committee who will have far more evidence that we have and are way more experienced in these boats handling characteristics decided that Roth made adequate attempts to avoid so I dont really think we can question that.
 
Actually the timings show the complete opposite
 
Its interesting that you argue that these boats are difficult to bear away yet you ignore the argument that they should have started the bear away when they saw the tack starting thus removing the 6 second delay. What is more interesting is that on Thursday the umpires were in better positions to judge these manouvres and were penalising anything that looked closed. IMHO if they taken this approach it would have saved 1 extreme 40 from the knackers yard (Artemis got written off) and saved a bit of carbon on the front of Roth
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 11 at 7:47am
The others very much thought Roth was in the wrong....but its hard with these guys to get a neutral opinion simply because of the scoring system...there is a massive penalty IF you cause a collision.
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by laser4000

[QUOTE=ASok]+1   

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)


How do you figure that? They clearly begin bearing away before Art is down to close hauled. Also its very easy to say they should have done X,Y,Z  but in the heat of the moment everyone makes mistakes. These boats are notoriously difficult to bear away in breeze, something which weve see in loads of past events. Clearly they tried to avoid, I dont think anyone that hasnt sailed these boats can pick apart their attempts because you simply dont know how they handle. 

At the end of the day the protest committee who will have far more evidence that we have and are way more experienced in these boats handling characteristics decided that Roth made adequate attempts to avoid so I dont really think we can question that.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:55pm
I firmly believe that had Roth thrown the boat into a tack they would have avoided, or as Simon says, blown the traveller and dipped them. I'd be interested to hear who was on the protest comm. and why they made the decision they did, but if there is a way of avoiding a collision, it needs to be taken to avoid infringing rule 10 and I dont believe a sensible or right decision was made by the crew of Roth.
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