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Extreme 40 crash decision

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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

Its interesting but the chat on the quay after was that only 1 neutral skipper (if you can call any skipper in the neutral) viewed it as a 50/50


Be curious what the others thought?
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laser4000 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by ASok

+1

I thought that once you had made the tack onto starboard you were right of way boat. Art had become starboard boat regardless of whether he'd accelerated out of the tack or not. Roth had sufficient time and space to avoid, but didn't.

I'm slightly confused by the decisions. Hoping that this discussion may enlighten me.


You're pretty much right..

Once Artemis's tack is completed (i.e on a close-hauled course) she's acquired right of way (rule 13), she initially needs to give Rothschild room to keep clear (rule 15) (and not really relevant with these position's). Rothschild needs only to start to respond once Artemis's tack is completed - if she does what she can to keep clear and there's still a crash then Artemis has tacked too close, if not then Rothschild is in the wrong. 

Whilst I'm not that familiar with how cats roll, it does look to me like rothschild only started responding once they spotted artemis had parked it, hence they are in the wrong (IMHO)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ASok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 8:50pm
+1

I thought that once you had made the tack onto starboard you were right of way boat. Art had become starboard boat regardless of whether he'd accelerated out of the tack or not. Roth had sufficient time and space to avoid, but didn't.

I'm slightly confused by the decisions. Hoping that this discussion may enlighten me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 7:32pm
My view is that Roth simply broke Port vs stbd and if they had SAILED THE BOAT CORRECTLY they would have managed to avoid. 
 
It's a well know tactic that if windy and need a bear-off you DO NOT blow the Jib; You dump the mainsail+traveller and bear off; then ease the jib.  Leaving the jib hard on pushes the bows away from the wind; stalls the slot as the main is eased and makes it easier.  
 
Roth simply sailed badly and thus broke P VS S.  Simple.  If they had dumped main and traveller and left the jib; they would have made it.  They were only a few feet away from making it anyway (looks like they hit somewhere around the back beam??).
 
 
If I had been on the protest ctte (Anyone know who was??) I would have been DSQing Roth for not avoiding the collision.  Poor boat handling does not exonerate you!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

I think the key point there is that Roth assumed they would accelerate out of the tack.
No, sorry the key point is that Roth doesn't have to assume anything; not that the other boat would tack onto starboard at the mark (as obvious as it is), nor that it may or not stall in doing so. 
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 3:28pm
But by admitting that they should have started to avoid when Art started to tack that means that Art is in the wrong, granted common sense says Roth could have started avoiding earlier and potentially could have avoided the crash but there was no reason for them to anticipate Art stalling and they began to avoid when it became clear that Art wasnt avoiding, which is exactly what they are required to do by the RRS. Regardless all this doesnt exonerate Art from their infringement so the protest committee can only find one way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 3:20pm
I think the key point there is that Roth assumed they would accelerate out of the tack. IMHO the tactics used are dubious, it is a tactic used in match racing so that the umpires know there wasnt time to advoid. In those conditions I personally may have started advoidance when the started the tack, which they easily would have seen. Its interesting but the chat on the quay after was that only 1 neutral skipper (if you can call any skipper in the neutral) viewed it as a 50/50
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

I was on the water, and with a good view, and certainly my immediate view was that Roth had time...on viewing the video I think the time is 6 seconds before they take advoiding action. Although they appear to have taken the view to use match racing tactics, despite several calls from the PRO not to do this, of only taking advoiding action once a collision is inevitable and then claimimg not time advoid.

Surely that is 6 secs from when Art starts to tack? Which is not when Roth has to start avoiding, also they couldnt have know as Art goes into the tack that they would stall, I guess they assumed they would come out of the tack quickly and could pass behind no problem. In my view they started avoiding as soon as they realised it was all going wrong for Art.

And unless anyone disagrees with the timings I posted at the start of the thread, then Art was in the wrong because Roth started taking avoiding action before they were obliged to and there was still a collision.


Edited by Quagers - 11 Aug 11 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Port and starboard, surely, if it was deemed they had time to avoid. I'm not convinced they did.
Granted <g>.
 
You just can't be on port tack and hit a boat, close hauled or below, on starboard without breaking rule 10.
 
Whether or not the other boat gave you room to keep clear.
 
ScoobyS, Your view?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 1:22pm
Has anybody got any quarrel with the event sequence and timings posted by Quagers in Post 2?
 
Looks ok to me.
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