Extreme 40 crash decision

   There was an incident with the Extreme 40s captured in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJpFueH1wvQ

Rothschilds protested and won. What I can't figure out is what was Artemis supposed to do. They were clear ahead on the same tack. They needed to tack for the mark as Rothschild would need to as well. They looked like the had completed the tack, before the collision. What could Artemis have done in the situation??

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rb_stretch Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote rb_stretch Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Extreme 40 crash decision Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 9:24pm
	There was an incident with the Extreme 40s captured in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJpFueH1wvQ Rothschilds protested and won. What I can't figure out is what was Artemis supposed to do. They were clear ahead on the same tack. They needed to tack for the mark as Rothschild would need to as well. They looked like the had completed the tack, before the collision. What could Artemis have done in the situation??

Quagers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 279	Post Options Post Reply Quote Quagers Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 9:47pm
	A better question is what more would you expect Rothschilds to do to avoid them? Make their boat disappear? As far as the rules are concerned the mark has absolutely nothing to do with this and it boils down to Dont tack in front of someone! A more official explanation is that Roth doesn't need to start avoiding until Art is on a close hauled course on the new tack, they then have to have 'time and opportunity' to take avoiding action. If you watch the video you will see they start taking avoiding action while Art is still tacking, so Art has already fouled before the crash occurs. Edited to add how I see it: 10sec Art starts to tack 14sec Art passes head to wind and becomes 'tacking boat' and has no rights 16sec Roth starts to try to bear away 18sec Art gets to close hauled 21sec Collision Edited by Quagers - 09 Aug 11 at 9:52pm

Andymac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852	Post Options Post Reply Quote Andymac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 8:51am
	As Quangers says, Roth was under no obligation to 'anticipate ' that Art would tack. Art did not assume any rights until it was on a Starbord tack close hauled course (it had lost its same tack, clear ahead status when it passed head to wind. Despite starting to avoid Art before it had assumed rights, Roth still didn't manage to avoid the collision. Art has failed to provide time and opportunity for Roth to keep clear. Q.E.D.

ASok Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 26 Sep 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 739	Post Options Post Reply Quote ASok Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 12:22pm
	More importantly, two crew members hanging upside down in the water and the tactician is just hell bent on waving the protest flag! Surely helping your buddies on first would have been the decent thing to do!

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 12:42pm
	I would imagine that at this level he assumes others will be helping his team mates, and his job is to ensure the protest is deemed valid
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Stuart O Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514	Post Options Post Reply Quote Stuart O Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 1:30pm
	he actually goes for the protest flag way before the collision...so IMHO Roth did have time and opportunity to advoid the collision.... they watch the boat tack and at that point carry on another 1-2 boats lengths whilst artemis is stalled...IMHO as soon as they started the tack Roth should have started advoiding the collision ...before they start to advoid the collision 6 seconds passes that in thos collisions is a hell of a lot of distance Edited by Stuart O - 10 Aug 11 at 1:33pm

Quagers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 279	Post Options Post Reply Quote Quagers Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 4:50pm
	Although that may be sensible from a boat preservation point of view its not at all required by the rules. I think both teams were caught out by Art stalling, but its still Arts fault.

craiggo Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810	Post Options Post Reply Quote craiggo Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 5:02pm
	On one hand I agree that rothschild didnt need to anticpate artemis's tack, however as soon as Artemis was close hauled on their new tack, Rothschild should have started avoiding action. While they had little time to escape, bearing away in an extreme 40 is always a tricky move, which could lead to loss of steerage or even a pitchpole and therefore the only sensible way out of this would have been to throw in a crash tack which would have been possible if it hadnt been for the determination to get a good result. I would suggest that rb_stretch's comments are valid and that Rothschild should have been the ones penalised for not avoiding a collision. Its a fine line I agree, but the collision was avoidable had Rothschild chucked in a crash tack.

rb_stretch Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 23 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742	Post Options Post Reply Quote rb_stretch Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 11 at 9:42pm
	My feeling was that Art threw in a tack on the layline in good faith (and let's face it who wouldn't in that situation - well clear ahead within the mark zone). The tack obviously got a bit messed up, but when you are stalled what can you do? Rothschild was the only boat that could control the situation at that point.

Stuart O Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514	Post Options Post Reply Quote Stuart O Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 11 at 8:15am
	Rothschild didnt need to anticipate Artemiss tack they could see them tacking and probably anticipated that Artemis would acclerate out of the take,....thus NO problem, but Artemis stalled close hauled. In those conditions as craiggo says beraing away is a tricky manouvre, but if he had started when he saw the tack starting and not some 6 seconds later collision would have been advoidable and both boats would be sailing in the series