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Laser Start?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:29pm
I think I'd agree that if the RO sees that a boat has sailed the wrong course, then they cannot be counted as a finisher - it is a little like a boat being over the line at the start and just hearing silence at the finish, surely? As has been said, though, wise to take a time, just in case.
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Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by gordon

The race committee not recording a boat as a finisher when she has finished wouold be grounds for redress,......Gordon
To finish you have to sail the course and cross the line, so if you see them not sail the (correct) course, they are DNF
It happens often enough at my club, people write the course down wrong or go to the wrong buoy in RTC racing, there is rarely any dispute that it was their mistake.
Done it myself, it was the crew's fault!
 
... but rather than being DNF, wouldn't they be DSQ for breaching RRS 28 (assuming they didn't correct ther error)?
 
in what circumstances do you become DNF rather than DSQ?
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 5:36pm
Wouldn't there have to be a protest for DSQ, whereas a boat not completing the course is DNF, whether the course isn't completed because of retirement or because of missing out vital parts of it?
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 11 at 7:24pm
Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

If the Race Committee does disqualify a boat incorrectly then the boat is entitled to redress because of the incorrect action of the committee. The redress hearing will only be deciding if the RC's action was correct. The competitor should be reinstated. If the RC then protests they would have to explain why the protest is outside the time limit. "Because we don't know the rules" should not be an adequate excuse.

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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 6:11am
... but rather than being DNF, wouldn't they be DSQ for breaching RRS 28 (assuming they didn't correct ther error)?


Correct. If you read the definition of "finish" in RRS there is no mention of whether or not the correct course has been sailed. "Finishing" is basically some part of the boat crossing the finish line in the correct direction. Sailing the wrong course is not DNF, it is DSQ under RRS 28 ("sailing the course").

I had this come up when I was Club RO last year. A sailor complained (to me) that another boat missed a mark, which I must surely have seen (I didn't) and I should therefore disqualify them (which was not my role).  The sailor who missed the mark later RTD.


Edited by blueboy - 17 May 11 at 6:17am
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 10:48am

Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in

normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.

According to that definition, on many club courses, a boat would 'finish' before sailing the second lap. Has ISAF become completely divorced from club sailing around the cans?
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Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 11:24am
well it depends on how you interpret 'last mark' because that could be interpreted as 'the mark before the finish line after the specified number of laps'. 
 
But I do wonder if a boat could miss several marks, sail close to the finish line, do several penalty turns (to make up for missing the marks) and then finish in a quicker time than sailing the race 'properly' would take?
 
I would think it was unfair conduct (RRS 2), but how would that be protested or determined?


Edited by asterix - 17 May 11 at 11:27am
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Posts: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SalsaPirates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by gordon

Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

Gordon
 
An interesting kettle of fish and variety of opinions.  Many thanks for the clarity Gordon ...  makes sense and your response is aligned to what I thought the answer should be, however a point of further clarity please. 
When you say 'a hearing is required' ....  at club level, I guess this means either Race team can protest under 60.2 (a) (provided they actually witnessed it and are not working on third hand information) or can utilise the RYA advisory hearing procedure (if adopted into club SI's) and assign an appropriate exoneration penalty?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by gordon

Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

If the Race Committee does disqualify a boat incorrectly then the boat is entitled to redress because of the incorrect action of the committee. The redress hearing will only be deciding if the RC's action was correct. The competitor should be reinstated. If the RC then protests they would have to explain why the protest is outside the time limit. "Because we don't know the rules" should not be an adequate excuse.

Gordon
No, I don't think so.
The protest committee would decide that the boat asking for redress had broken a rule by not sailing the course and would disqualify the boat.
 
Also asking for redress knowing you had not sailed the course would not be fair sailing.
If you dispute the course or honestly claim you have sailed it that's obviously different.
Also, another competitor could protest as soon as they heard the boat not sailing the course had been re-instated?
 
In our club, as soon as we come ashore and it becomes aparent who has not sailed the course, they effectively retire. We may be slightly out of line in listing them as DNF but the points are the same.
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Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by asterix

well it depends on how you interpret 'last mark' because that could be interpreted as 'the mark before the finish line after the specified number of laps'. 
 
But I do wonder if a boat could miss several marks, sail close to the finish line, do several penalty turns (to make up for missing the marks) and then finish in a quicker time than sailing the race 'properly' would take?
 
I would think it was unfair conduct (RRS 2), but how would that be protested or determined?
Doing penalty turns does not "make up" for missing a mark or marks.
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