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oldarn View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Streaker PY number
    Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Vronny


  
I can understand that the AltO is likely to end up with a PY slower than the 505, but I'm surprised if it's slower than the Javelin (PY 926). I've never sailed a Javelin but know people who have  and I've raced against them in my Fireball. It always seemed like a straightforward sort of boat. Not as hi-tec and clever as the 505 but, in the right hands, good on all points of sailing. Please don't say the AltO won't match this!

  An interesting comparison. I think your point is fair.

I have sailed against a Javelin at Alton Water on several occasions, and with similar teams they are of similar speed. Another similar speed boat that has also sailed at Alton Water is the Osprey. Its PY is 940 but it was sailed by a hot team in the names of Dave Carroll and Jono Baker.
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 11:23am
 Perhaps it is fair to say that the Javelin unlike the Osprey and Wayfarer has not gone in for banditry-yet! Thus it has got slightly left behind and that, to be realistic, perhaps the Osprey should be 926 and the Javelin 940!
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 11:54am
Originally posted by GK.LaserII

...V3000..... Too much controversy with the PY and the CA don't seem that intrested in sorting it out.

That is very unfair. From the outset, the class has always recommended a lower figure for the Vandercraft-hulled 3000's, and we've written to the RYA a number of times without response other than the inclusion of the V3000 on the 2010 PY list on the same number as the Laser 3000 - not what we asked for at all.

To the best of our calculations, the loss of 25kg should have resulted in a figure of 1007, which we still consider to be a good average taken over all venues (try sailing a trap-asymmetric at Burghfield or smaller ponds)

At Wilsonian, there was indeed a lot of controversy, as the local conditions suit the boat very well. But we used the RYA/Sailracer scheme to come up with a (latest) figure of 976 and everybody is happy with that - or as happy as people ever are with PY's.

As a class, it has been our wish as expressed to the RYA to have a figure for the latest (Vandercraft-hulled) boats, with corrections for the older boats (Lasers), as is done by e.g. the Merlins and N12's. But the way Sailracer/RYA returns are being made, it might be more sensible to use two separate figures, one for Vandercraft the other for Laser hulls. That might suggest that Lasers can't race V's on the water, but we've had numerous races in which Lasers have beaten V's, including last year's (excellent F.3-4) Medway Marathon, where an L3k finished after 2hrs 53, to beat all three local V3k's by five minutes and more on the water.

Sorry for being off-topic, but the point had to be answered, and there is enough misinformation out there already.



Edited by Medway Maniac - 13 Jan 11 at 2:16pm
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:01pm
Funny I just read an article on the Contender Iconic boat that got to be Iconic precisely because it bent the rules, so I guess all the time folk that bend rules are held up as Icons and other folk benefit commercially, then this will continue and anyone who doesn't like or want to 'risk' it will have to go down the SMOD route.

It takes some understanding all this doesn't it? A veritable minefield of intrigue, skullduggery, conspiracy to pervert natural justice and just plain bumbling chance.

It could be tightened up, but someone would have to grow a big pair of balls and stand fast. But, by the sound of it the climate is such that secretly everyone wants to cheat, get chicken sh*t results whilst pretending the system doesn't really matter and only Class racing counts.

Well I think that's wrong, I think the system does matter and lots of us like and enjoy using it and don't like it being deliberately bent out of shape for whatever the motive, chicken results or commercial gain.

I think we should name and shame the damn boats and builders, so at the very least it's written there large on a wall (albeit a virtual one) - sail this and a lot of your fellow man believe your results are as worthless as chicken sh*t.

Because lots of us think that way but are maybe not as 'rude and outrageous' enough as some damned windsurfer to come out and say it loud.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:12pm
Trying to make one's boat go faster than the opposition within a set of rules is how sailing has been since the year dot. That Contender was made to beat other Contenders, and had nothing to do with cheating a handicap rating.
As you say, either sail a SMOD or accept that someone building a boat that measures and is faster than yours is a possibility. Of course, with some SMODs, just the fact that a new boat is newer than yours is enough to make it quicker. I'm not sure how sailing a SMOD ensures the handicap is correct, though - most of them don't have enough returns to be 100% sure of the handicap anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:20pm
Graeme

Kind of what I was suggesting in my post, but as always I lack your subtlety, charm and eloquence LOL

Topic: Streaker PY number
Posted: Today at 10:39am By SimonW99
I think the RYA need to be hotter on this when issuing their annual numbers and they can only do this with the help of the classes. There is no doubt that the Rooster streaker with the right sails is significantly faster than its existing PY. 

If the class associations monitored the classes, then where there is a class approved change in materials or shape which is performance enhancing, they should provide a return to the RYA who could then set a trial number for new boats. Any builder who also has finalised changes should also be required to notify such changes to both the class association and the RYA.

Of course, in both cases above, those parties may have a vested interest in not doing so!
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

Graeme

Kind of what I was suggesting in my post, but as always I lack your subtlety, charm and eloquence LOL

Topic: Streaker PY number
Posted: Today at 10:39am By SimonW99
I think the RYA need to be hotter on this when issuing their annual numbers and they can only do this with the help of the classes. There is no doubt that the Rooster streaker with the right sails is significantly faster than its existing PY. 

If the class associations monitored the classes, then where there is a class approved change in materials or shape which is performance enhancing, they should provide a return to the RYA who could then set a trial number for new boats. Any builder who also has finalised changes should also be required to notify such changes to both the class association and the RYA.

Of course, in both cases above, those parties may have a vested interest in not doing so!

Yes it's been my experience, over the years that no-one listens to well rounded well crafted points, it tends to be the loud mouthed abusive eejiots that get the attention, not a nice society at all, so I try to go in between ( and fail :-)) But we're both right and in truth your method is probably more likely to achieve its ends than mine in this instance, but I do have more fun writing my 'bollox'.


As to the Streaker and having gotten off the subject and spent a bit of time investigating, it's not the Streaker PY that needs to change, its The Rooster Streaker that perhaps should be classified and re PY'd in similar vein to the V over the L 3k. Or are there other bandit builders doing Streakers now?
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Posts: 121 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Vronny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Trying to make one's boat go faster than the opposition within a set of rules is how sailing has been since the year dot. That Contender was made to beat other Contenders, and had nothing to do with cheating a handicap rating.
As you say, either sail a SMOD or accept that someone building a boat that measures and is faster than yours is a possibility. Of course, with some SMODs, just the fact that a new boat is newer than yours is enough to make it quicker. I'm not sure how sailing a SMOD ensures the handicap is correct, though - most of them don't have enough returns to be 100% sure of the handicap anyway. 
I agree.
That's the nature of dinghy racing that I grew up with. Enterprises and Fireballs were built by a variety of builders (mostly keen sailors themselves) and everyone was looking for an edge, except perhaps for some people who were modest in their sailing ambitions and would buy from some cheaper alternatives. And of course, in many classes we can still choose our sailmaker and we're hoping that this year's sails will get us round the course faster than last year's.
Personally this has kept my interest in dinghy sailing over the years. I'm fairly new to the Streaker class; it's rather a rarity in my part of the country (the Norfolk Broads) but it seems to have quite a few ex-enterprise sailors in the fleet. I bet they know what makes a hard-chine dinghy competitive. The Rooster streakers offer a consistent, competitive package - but I bet the development of  competitive hull shapes (within the building tolerances) had already gone a long way before Rooster got involved. So quite when the Streaker came to be seen as a bit of a bandit, I'm not sure. But as the class grows and spreads to more clubs, the PY returns to the RYA should become more and more reliable.
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Posts: 121 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Vronny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.



As to the Streaker and having gotten off the subject and spent a bit of time investigating, it's not the Streaker PY that needs to change, its The Rooster Streaker that perhaps should be classified and re PY'd in similar vein to the V over the L 3k. Or are there other bandit builders doing Streakers now?
Certainly a lot of new Streakers are Rooster ones, but by no means all. Dave Butler is the other main builder and I gather he's been building them for ages. Some people think his boats are faster! And quite a few boats are still home-built, including some very quick ones. So it's not all Steve Cockerill's fault!
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 11 at 2:13pm
I remember that some fast Enterprises - a bit of an oxymoron   Wink   -  were called Slenderprises, and Benterprises by the rest of the fleet.  ( but they were using the tolerances allowed within the rules )

The Mirror 14 / Marauder had one or two boats built from epoxy/foam etc, and were so much faster and better than the home-built ply boats, that the class died and has disappeared - apart from Winging It's boat of course Smile



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