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Steve411 View Drop Down
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Posts: 705 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Streaker PY number
    Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 6:04pm
At what age does a good sailor stop being a good sailor? It would appear that you are not allowed to beat a 'hotshot' once you are in your 70s. How absurd!
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 6:29pm
Steve123 has a valid point in that the old streakers don't compare with the new ones - same with the woody phantoms - but if the pn is changed to suit the 'modern' boats, do the old ones still sail off the older number?

I need to get on the water......I only have 20 years to go till I'm past it! Confused
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 7:08pm
On the defense of the new streakers, the hull shape is taken from a wooden boat, the weight of the new ones has a lower limit of 4kg Heavier than what the wooden boats have to conform to and the committee have tried their best to keep the rig the same but when the original mast is no longer available a change has to be made.  

I agree that if a new one and an old one capsized, yes ok there would be a BIG difference as the new ones have a raised floor so take on less water and drain fantastically quicker = speedy speedy!!  

A new streaker is slower than a laser upwind and downwind, it's just too short to compete but imo much quicker on a reach.  On a windward leeward course, the py becomes very fair.  If you throw in loads of reaches, OK you'll have an extremely tough challenge to ever beat a streaker on handicap.  

I did lasers years ago, had a new streaker last year and am now back in a laser and from my perspective, the handicap seems as fair as ANY OTHER HANDICAP!  
I believe the laser me will WHOOP the streaker me on a windward leeward course, obviously on the water and yes on handicap.  

Doug

ps.  James, I've never burdened myself with being a good sailor so I never had to worry about not being one.  The streaker was just an added bonus of being slow in the first place  Big smile


Edited by Doug.H - 11 Jan 11 at 7:13pm
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Steve411

At what age does a good sailor stop being a good sailor? It would appear that you are not allowed to beat a 'hotshot' once you are in your 70s. How absurd!

One of the joys of our sport (at club level anyway) is the way that such a massive age range of people can compete on relatively level terms.   I did a nats as a teenager back in the 70s in a now defunct single handed class, the guy that won it was a 70 something ex Spitfire pilot!!

Back on topic, I do actually think the Streakers have got much quicker in recent years. We've got a couple of guys at the club who were mid/back of the fleet in their old wood/amateur built Streakers who both went to the front with new Butler Streakers. But the same thing happened when some of our guys traded in their wooden Phantoms for epoxy/carbon ships. Eventually this gets picked up by the PY system over time, witness the way the Phantom PY has dropped from 1051 to 1035 in recent years. In the interim, as others have said, the answer is to badger our clubs to use the yardstick system in the way the RYA intended, by making sure annual returns are done and that local handicaps are used where relevant.
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Alan Gillard View Drop Down
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Posts: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Alan Gillard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 7:55pm

I think it a little unfair comparing the Streaker to a Phantom in terms of boat development guys. As Doug has already said the minimum weight of a Streaker increased by 4kg. This was because the Standard at the time, Kit built Streaker averaged a weight when built by amateurs of 48kg. So the class membership at an AGM voted to increase the minimum weight by 4kg. So the new Epoxy Butler and Rooster Streaker’s and before this the Speed/Holt Streaker’s were made to the new minimum 48kg. So unlike Phantoms there was no significant gain from hull weight loss (20kg as I read on the Phantom Forum) for Streaker’s.

As for the mast 95% of the fleet all have the Rigel Section (the same one as described on this forum as a tree trunk), it is still not tapered. Unlike a Phantom who reduced their all up sailing weight still further with a Carbon rig.

The false floor in a Streaker is only relevant on the sea. Very few Streakers’ sail on the sea as there is little enough freeboard before the big green one swamps you. Where the Streaker scores is on small puddles. It accelerates quickly and tacks on a sixpence.

Handicap wise I have sailed Streaker’s long enough to remember that we were rated at 1173 then 1170, this reduced to 1168 and finally 1162 for the last few years.

If we are on the subject of Bandit handicap classes then the Graduate comes right up there. What other class has increased its sail area by 15% and then recommended to clubs to shift its handicap 2 points from 1167 to 1165? That’s a disgrace. As I have won the Grad nationals a couple of times I think I am qualified to say this.

Don’t discount the Streaker in terms of quality of sailors our top guys are doing very well in other classes, as the National Champion is the current Fireball European Champ. 2nd was a Laser Radial Apprentice Champ, and 3rd was a guy who came 5th at the RS200 champs, not forgetting Steve Cockerill who was well pleased to get a 4th. That does not count the 2 past Endeavour Trophy winners who sail in the fleet.

The 70 year old Streaker sailor has been sailing a Streaker for 20 odd years or more, and the race in question mentioned by Steve123 was in light winds no more than a 2 against a Laser sailor who is one of the biggest laser sailors out there.

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 8:09pm
Its pretty well documented that once the false floor came into the Phantom, it was pretty much impossible to build down to weight, so effectively, the epoxy boats, which were down to weight, were rather lighter than the boats setting the handicap. However, until there were lots of new boats handicap racing, the numbers reflected the older boats out there. This has started to change now more epoxy boats are handicap racing, so things are leveling out. It is up to clubs who see this kind of thing happening to set the handicap and put in returns, not really up to the class, who are mainly concentrating on class racing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 8:24pm
On this Particular race in question, lets look at where that specific laser sailors advantages lie and what the race presented him with.  
If you give A.M.B. some good breeze you've given him a huge advantage, he's incredibly fit....this race was not breezy.  
If you give A.M.B. some waves, it will appear like he's doubled his boatspeed compared to anyone else.....there were no waves in this race.  
Give him a completely packed start line with three rows of boats, he'll get the best start of them all.... it was a relatively low number starting so he didn't have that advantage.  
Give A.M.B. a packed leeward mark rounding where he could gain or lose ten places, and I'll be you £100 right now he'll be the one Gaining ten places..... he had no such mark roundings to contend with.  
Big fleet tactics experience?  He didn't have that as an advantage because it wasn't a big packed fleet.  
In fact if there were any variable present at that race that would be present at a championship race, give the boy some breeze and waves and I've no doubt in my mind that he would have creamed the streaker in question on handicap by an absolute country mile!!

However, looking at it from the outside, that race took away a hell of a lot of A.M.B.'s advantages.  

I'm happy to be wrong if I've misunderstood the conditions present at that race.  




Edited by Doug.H - 11 Jan 11 at 8:25pm
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 11 at 8:41pm
not having a false floor is relevanton any piece of water once you've capsized.  In both our phantom and our streaker if you capsize you might as well retire!
the same, but different...

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steve123497 View Drop Down
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Posts: 26 		Post Options Post Options   Quote steve123497 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 11 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Steve411

At what age does a good sailor stop being a good sailor? It would appear that you are not allowed to beat a 'hotshot' once you are in your 70s. How absurd!

You are missing the point.  I don't mind that the 70 year old had beaten the Laser sailor in a race. One is my cousin and the other a long term friend. What I am saying, if you read my post, is that a Laser sailing in clear air with a young, very experienced helm, was beaten on handicap by a 70 year old sailing in dirty air. Surely you must be able to see the absurdity of that.
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steve123497 View Drop Down
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Posts: 26 		Post Options Post Options   Quote steve123497 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 11 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Doug.H

On this Particular race in question, lets look at where that specific laser sailors advantages lie and what the race presented him with.  
If you give A.M.B. some good breeze you've given him a huge advantage, he's incredibly fit....this race was not breezy.  
If you give A.M.B. some waves, it will appear like he's doubled his boatspeed compared to anyone else.....there were no waves in this race.  
Give him a completely packed start line with three rows of boats, he'll get the best start of them all.... it was a relatively low number starting so he didn't have that advantage.  
Give A.M.B. a packed leeward mark rounding where he could gain or lose ten places, and I'll be you £100 right now he'll be the one Gaining ten places..... he had no such mark roundings to contend with.  
Big fleet tactics experience?  He didn't have that as an advantage because it wasn't a big packed fleet.  
In fact if there were any variable present at that race that would be present at a championship race, give the boy some breeze and waves and I've no doubt in my mind that he would have creamed the streaker in question on handicap by an absolute country mile!!

However, looking at it from the outside, that race took away a hell of a lot of A.M.B.'s advantages.  

I'm happy to be wrong if I've misunderstood the conditions present at that race.  



Ok so taking AMB out of the equation, though I don't think that,s relevant, that means the ordinary club sailors would have had to beat the streakers by over four and a half minutes in order to win. If we could do that we would be looking for places in the olympic team. :-)
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