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Foiling for the masses
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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Originally posted by Merlinboy

... so is £15k miles out for a new foiler?

erm yes, if you want to sell it in 'reasonable' numbers and compete against Phantoms, RS100s, Devoti-Ones, Blazes etc 

A Porsche Turbo isn't going to compete on price with a Vauxhall Vctra... Not no way, now how, but that's effectively what you are suggesting is necessary.

Mind you you're probably right. IME british dinghy sailors only want to *talk* about going fast: they aren't prepared to actually put into the project what it takes to do it, be it money or time and effort.
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:10pm

Why is the DCB n12 so much money then?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

 
I can't see the market


Nor can I, really, which is why I thought that if you can't find 1/2 a dozen people willing to go for it, you'll never find another couple of hundred willing to jump on the band wagon once it has been shown to work.
As for cost, the Cherub guys still manage to knock hulls out for less than the cost of a plastic SMOD, I think, but the foils and rig would be a killer.

Mind, I thought the Moth would become even smaller, numbers wise, and I was totally wrong...
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Posts: 113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bryn_14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Why is the DCB n12 so much money then?


I think the justification is the "reverlutionary" design for an N12 and the sheer amount of string on it.

It's interesting to note that more than 10 were sold last year at more than 11K for the top model, there must be the money out there if any new class is good and pushed enough surely?
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Posts: 705 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Surely it would be pretty easy to scale a Moth up to 13 or 14 feet, put a bigger rig on it, strengthen everything and then send it out with a lardarse on board? If you want a class that can develop, make it as simple as the Moth rules, get out there and build some. Can't see any point in making something as innovative as you want this into a one design, really.
So the rules would be:
Max length
Max width
Max sail area
Max luff length

and get on with it. Find 6 people willing to give it a go, get out there and sail them, and others will either want to join in or not. If you can't even find 6 people, then the idea is dead.
 
I asked Bladerider a couple of years ago if they had any plans to develop a bigger Moth for the heavier person. They said they hadn't but suggested I might want to buy one of their hulls and put my own 10sq m rig on it, 'but of course that would invalidate the warranty', which I thought was a bit rich seeing as they couldn't build a boat to stay together with an 8 sq m rig sailed by people 10-20 kilos lighter.
 
'Foiling for the masses' - mass being the right word I think.
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:26pm
But the Cherub class son't sell new boats in any great numbers do they?  They sure as hell have a great class, a real close knit community into sharing ideas, skills and alike.  But its hardly a class for the masses, not that its a bad thing.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Why is the DCB n12 so much money then?

Same reason as a Lexus is so much more than a Toyota or a BMW more than a Ford...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 4:49pm
Its all going daft again.... Shocked

Foiling moths sell in very small numbers - why? 
- Because they are expense 
- Because they are evolving rapidly
- because they only suit clean water conditions (weedy lakes and spring blooms are a killer)
- mostly because they are very difficult to sail and most of the lardy a*ssed over the hill boys on this forum could barely swim one out, never mind sail the thing.

The one reason that does not apply is because they are are not weight carriers.

If big boys (self included) want foiling speed with something they can sail in a wide range of conditions it is going to have to be considerably more stable and easier to sail. That either means some kind of foiling scow/vortex (any comment GRF?) or something with a standardised and more forgiving foil system such as the Tomahawk thing Ovi's dabbled with at the 2009 dinghy show -what happened to that?  -Err nothing, presumably because it was realised that it wouldn't sell in numbers.

With creaking knees distinctly average fitness a very little spare time for any of that training stuff you can see what Jo Richards was up to with that Vortex. Shame he forgot to put the kite on it when it was in production. The remaining ones are blinking-quick around a course with the kite and can be sailed by any old has been. Graham save yourself some money by a cheap vortex and stick some foils on it Big smile
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 7:13pm
James, we are obviously never going to agree on this one, i think your are missing my point and i can't be bothered to explain it any further. But if you cant see that the boat would be more expensive only £2k then a DCB 12 and only £5k more then an on the water 100 with both rigs then you are missing the point.  We are talking a carbon foiling machine new design concept.  I am also only guessing at a price and of a boat i don't even have much of an interest in!
It would never work because people don't want to spend that sort of money and especially not with the reasons i mentioned before.  Its a FACT.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 11 at 7:35pm
13k or whatever spent on a DCB takes you to the top of a hot fleet with lots of excellent racing.
15k spent on a hypothetical foiler takes you to obscurity.

It's only the might of the likes of RS who can launch new classes from nowhere.
In another thread GRF is describing his Alto as past it before I've even seen one.
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