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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: To many classes
    Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 1:01pm
If there are too many classes, what can you realistically do? Organise some sort of active cull? Expensive and upopular I would think- anyone know a freindly billionaire who's tired of giving money to alleviate 3rd world poverty and would like to help the british middle classes leisure pursuits instead?  LOL After all, if you're going to kill off classes, it would only be polite (and keep people in sailing) if those who see their boats burnt/landfilled were to get one of the remaining classes. Bit of work, reckon we could reduce that Racing Classes guide down to a core of about twenty or so (including the cats)? of course, endless arguments about what we keep- or perhaps better to design a range from scratch. Today the UK, tommorow the world!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by ex laser

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by GK.LaserII

Fewer bigger clubs with larger fleets is the way to go imo.


Sounds like a nightmare to me, personally. Further to travel to get to a pond big enough means going there less, bigger means more impersonal, knowing far fewer people %wise in the club, fees will be higher.

Small, local clubs - friendly, more clubs so more choice and less travel, generally cheaper.

Unless I wanted to sail a particular high performance class which was only sailed at a big club, I'd choose the small club every time.

The reason for several small clubs in the Cotswold water park is that there is no one piece of water big enough to have a big club. Because of this, each club has grown up a little different, and suits different needs.


+1

i live in the west midlands, so am lucky in that there are at least a dozen clubs with in 25 miles of my home.
but if draycote was the only club in the area, i would give up sailing because it would not give me the same things rupert has already mentioned.

and before anyone posts, i am not running down draycote. its a great club.
it just does not suit me.
 
 
 
As I said just now:
 
Doesn't sound good to me either but I think it's the way things are going.
 
Too many classes because people now expect more choice/are less willing to be dictated to if they are paying for something.
Old (good) attitudes of helping out, making do, supporting, team work are dissapearing, so fewer volunteers. Once the post war generations have gone the volunteers will dry up even more.
Pressure on clubs to use professionals for maintenance, catering, race duties because of legislation and lack of volunteers.
UK public expecting more value for money and the rise of consumerist attitudes.
Time pressure on many people who work at weekends who want to pop in, sail and leave.
 
Most of the above can be catered for at bigger, more professional clubs (unfortunately) Cry 
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Posts: 113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bryn_14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 1:13pm
I get your point, I was just curious to see what people think. I agree with JimC really in that choice is a beautiful thing and I'm all for it. It's just a shame that, especially in smaller clubs, there is less and less class racing, unless you want a laser or something like a solo (examples from Spinnaker). I have nothing against this, it just seems to be tending towards fewer bigger clubs which is a shame.
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 1:32pm
I think it's important to realise that there can be more to a sailing club than just the sailing.  At my club we are now working really hard to build up the social/family side of things, and that has brought new members flooding in.  This means we cater not just for the racers, but for the kids, cruisers and fun sailors too, so we see all ages and genders out on the water.  The club is vibrant and growing, even though it's small, because members see that it is value for money. 

True, we don't enjoy as much fleet racing as many would like, but there are at least people out racing - numbers are going up, not down, and a higher percentage of the membership is racing than before.

You can't force people into a one size fits all scenario, because now more than ever they want choice and more importantly, they want to enjoy their precious free time.  One of our biggest meetings last year was a combined cvrda and vintage merlin open, because all the club members with olde or unusual boats could come out, race FOR FUN, and not be worried that they weren't new, fast and shiny, or hyper competitive.

Now some of those people have joined the handicap fleet and are having a great time.  Surely that's what matters most?
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


very true, although I wouldn't necessarily assume that smaller, local clubs can't compete.  Nor would I assume that the bigger inland clubs are 'progressive' and willing to adapt either!

South Cerney runs on volunteer support, however it also offers members the chance to buy-out of their duties.  Carsington has a points system, which trades back any half day of work against a membership fee 'duty' levy... which means you can effectively zero out your membership fee with enough duties (great if you're retired or don't work 'regular hours')

The point both these clubs have realised is not to stigmatise those who cannot do duties for whatever reason.  They simply make the membership accessible on several levels- those who want the 'real club' muck in/reduced fees and those who want the pay and play approach.
     
 
 
Absolutely, moaning at the reluctant volunteers doesn't work, unless there's a waiting list and you can afford to loose the odd member. We've lost the odd member because of nagging.
 
The large number of classes rather dictates the use of handicap racing for us. So I have persuaded the club to use a local handicap for a series af races next year. Hopefully this will take a few of the venue specific wrinkles out of the system and thus make the handicap system more enjoyable.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 3:51pm
How are you distinguising between crew skill and boat speed for the local conditions? Where we have "one of everything" it is really difficult to come up with accurate changes, so if you have any hints, please tell!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Rupert

How are you distinguising between crew skill and boat speed for the local conditions? Where we have "one of everything" it is really difficult to come up with accurate changes, so if you have any hints, please tell!
 
 
Same here, not enough of any one boat to make sensible calculations  so I've looked elsewhere.
 
Compared results from tidal and non tidal locations, big handicap races, many years of results, many locations. It provided some interesting evidence......The short story is we're looking at a tidal adjustment similar to HISC and Lancing SC (although calculated differently). 
 
 It'll be called the PRAT system (Pevensey Rectification Against Tide). Perhaps someone could provide an alternative name? LOL
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Posts: 1076 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 10 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by winging it

I think it's important to realise that there can be more to a sailing club than just the sailing.  At my club we are now working really hard to build up the social/family side of things, and that has brought new members flooding in.  This means we cater not just for the racers, but for the kids, cruisers and fun sailors too, so we see all ages and genders out on the water.  The club is vibrant and growing, even though it's small, because members see that it is value for money. 

True, we don't enjoy as much fleet racing as many would like, but there are at least people out racing - numbers are going up, not down, and a higher percentage of the membership is racing than before.

You can't force people into a one size fits all scenario, because now more than ever they want choice and more importantly, they want to enjoy their precious free time.  One of our biggest meetings last year was a combined cvrda and vintage merlin open, because all the club members with olde or unusual boats could come out, race FOR FUN, and not be worried that they weren't new, fast and shiny, or hyper competitive.

Now some of those people have joined the handicap fleet and are having a great time.  Surely that's what matters most?
Nessa`s club is probably the friendliest club I have eversailed at. Looking forward to our next visit.  
 
 
ps Happy birthday Nessa


Edited by rogerd - 17 Dec 10 at 5:49pm
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Posts: 290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Inland sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 10 at 2:50am
Originally posted by ex laser

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by GK.LaserII

Fewer bigger clubs with larger fleets is the way to go imo.


Sounds like a nightmare to me, personally. Further to travel to get to a pond big enough means going there less, bigger means more impersonal, knowing far fewer people %wise in the club, fees will be higher.

Small, local clubs - friendly, more clubs so more choice and less travel, generally cheaper.

Unless I wanted to sail a particular high performance class which was only sailed at a big club, I'd choose the small club every time.

The reason for several small clubs in the Cotswold water park is that there is no one piece of water big enough to have a big club. Because of this, each club has grown up a little different, and suits different needs.


+1

i live in the west midlands, so am lucky in that there are at least a dozen clubs with in 25 miles of my home.
but if draycote was the only club in the area, i would give up sailing because it would not give me the same things rupert has already mentioned.

and before anyone posts, i am not running down draycote. its a great club.
it just does not suit me.


Interesting feedback their ex laser
Draycote has changed an awful lot in the last few years and has been one thing I have personally been striving to change 'the unfriendly club' image. Small steps but things are changing.
It would be good to hear other peoples view on the larger clubs, Grafham, Rutland and the like to see others thoughts. Material for another thread ... back to classes ...

IMHO the more people we can get back into sailing, they seem to be the stayers, rather than new new new all the time could help solve the lack of attendance. The choice of classes I don't think hinder that as their are many choices out their, what we need to try and do as the 'leaders of the pack' is to encourage people to sail boats that are right for them. It's no good putting a level 2 newbie straight into a Moth or 49er but it does make sense to steer them towards a Laser, Solo, L2000, RS200 or even a Fred. I have seen more people stay sailing that have crewed too, rather than going singlehanded straight away, helps build the wind awareness and confidence on the (hopefully) busy startline.

As a panasea the number of classes is self governing anyway, the smaller classes that have no enthusiasm within will naturally fall by the wayside, leaving sailors to move to another class, one down, others will follow. A sad fact but true, where is the Tempest now, or the Flying Dutchman, fantatsic boats but very small continued following.
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 10 at 11:55am

Re the small club/big club thread - personally I'm firmly in the small club camp.  I like the better pond/bigger fleets side of big clubs, but IMHO you don't get the same level of comradeship.   Being at a small club can be like racing with your mates. Having said that, I'm also pretty sure that the future will see more of us sailing at fewer but bigger clubs, for all the reasons that have been well discussed on this forum  before (i.e. small clubs suffering from an ageing volunteer base, shoestring finances etc etc).

Re the too many classes thread - not sure about that, think I'm more convinced by the argument that someone made up thread about cost being a big barrier to the sport nowadays. When I started we all built our boats from kits, and from what I recall the cost was relative peanuts. A decent DIYer could build a boat that was competitive at any level too. Was this one of the reasons we had such big fleets back then?   IMHO the modern dinghy racing scene has become both fragmented and a bit of a niche.  There are some fine UK boat builders around who build wonderful craft, at a price, and every now and again I go and spend several thousand pounds on one myself. But less and less of us are doing that.

 I am sure there is a big market for a basic/intermediate club racer, such as a Miracle, but at a sub £3k price point.   What I’m amazed at is why some entrepreneurial soul hasn’t built the “China Boatbuilding Factory” to go alongside the “China Sail Factory”, and leveraging offshore production economics to achieve this level of price reduction.

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