Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
B14 |
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Menace ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296 |
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John, have to agree, Cherub class is a really good class at the moment, really friendly and a good stand at the last Dinghy show, probably spent most time on it and I am not a Cherub enthusiast. Every time I see Atum Bomb up for sale, I have a "I wonder" moment. I just haven't seen them go that quick but it could be down to what you were saying about sailor competance. Hope things are on the up as you were saying, would be good to see them destroy a few other skiffs on the water..
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Menace ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296 |
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I hate to disagree, we found our M12 relatively easy to get on with. We never sailed a B5 so can't comment on that boat but the class consensus is the B5 is easier than the M12, so you're right on that score. We owned our M12 for a good few years and I found it much easier than a 5000 or 49er, hence the relatively easy comparison. Could be a case of horses for courses, I just found the 14 quite straight forward and forgiving compared to other boats I've sailed and a little dissapointing really, one of the main reasons we stayed clear of the 800 too. My crew was of the same opinion and really wondered why we punted the 49er on. The 49er had the ability to suprise, the 14 seemed very tame in comparison, you could almost have a cup of tea 2 sail reaching a 14.
I didn't see Pete Barton sail his boat, but have seen quite a few Cherubs perform at the level I mentioned, hence my opinion is based on the average sailor sailing the Cherub, not Pete Barton. I've sailed a 420 faster than a 14 round a course, does that mean 420s are quicker than 14s??? Or could it be I was just sailing better than the guys sailing the 14 and was able to handle the boat better?
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ham4sand ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 27 Jul 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 452 |
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ihavent been online for ages, hence why cherubs were not mentioned, they seem to have a bad rep with certain people on this forumn.
The ideal crew weight is prob in the range of 140kg, i sail them (obviously) with my friend, we are both 16 and seem to deal with it fairly well. In terms of skill needed, they take a fair bit of getting used to but are actually fairly easy to make go well.
A historical problem with cherubs has been their hatred of chop... but recent Ellway designs certainly seemed to have solved this problem!!!! they are rocketships :D
in regards to people's view of them being fairly slow, this is certainly influenced by the fact that it is very much a lovers as apposed to serious racer's class, which contributes to slower PY due to the boats not being sailed to their potentil some of the time, however the class assosiation is certainly one of the friendlyiest.
lso, i have one for sale ;)
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this |
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Jaws ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 27 Nov 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 92 |
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I agree that the I14 is probably too much money, time and effort to sail well, not to mention the cost of boats capable of competing in modern fleets. Cherub has similar problems. Laser 4000 seems a bit like a beefed up 29er, and i just don't really want to sail one. When it comes down to it, its 29er v B14. The 29er has the advantage of having another boat regularly, and a trapeze. I already have good experience sailing trapeze boats, so no great loss not sailing the 29er there. When it comes down to it, its a question of how important other boats are: either have 1 29er to race against regularly, or have the occasional b14 plus a couple of Mustos. Can a boat still be enjoyably raced without others that are identical? remember that TBYC has very long courses, about 20 mins per lap in an assymetric like b14 or 29er, and 35 mins in a laser or sandhopper.
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Merlinboy ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169 |
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I got to disagree with quite a bit of that. First off Pete Barton was sailing his Cherub a fair bit quicker then B14's during this (last) years winter handicaps (despite its handicap). Secondly the Morrison 12 is not a particularly easy 14 to get on with, the hull shape makes it quite a bit harder and less stable then the Bieker 5, in fact i think its well known in the fleet as being slightly 'twitchy'. Trust me i sailed one for quite a while!! If your looking for something thats going to be good entry level into this type of sailing then buy a B14, a i14 (modern rules) is going to take loads of time, practice and probably money (i know from experience)
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Menace ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296 |
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On our old 5000, the helm never did anything hoist wise unless it was incredibly light. As Neil said, helm balances, steers, does the main, etc, etc. If the helm is concentrating on hoisting in the centre of the boat, usually leads to trouble in any wind. Get the crew to pull 2 strings, not too tricky and a lot less wet. You'll notice a big difference in anything above a force 4.
Jaws, Cherub crew weight is somewhere between 120-135kg according to the Cherub guy at the boat show, although much heavier people do sail the boat. International 14 wise, wouldn't look at anything older than a Bieker 3 or a Morrison 11 and wouldn't go near a I-14 without a T-Foil, especially on the sea. We had a M12 for a while and it was a fairly easy boat to get on with. The newer I-14s are much easier to sail than the old ones in my opinion. Saying that though, you would get a really good B14 for the price of an okay I-14 and the B14 is a lot less hassle and just as rewarding a boat to sail. The B14 is a fair bit quicker than a Cherub also, anytime I've seen a Cherub sail well, they've sailed to their handicap mixing it with Laser 4000s and RS400s. Have you thought of a Laser 4000, good sea boat, reasonable class, cheap and as good, if not better performance than the 29er and Cherub? B14 is at another level of performance to the 29er but not necesarily that much higher skill level for you to master, try to get an Ovi B14 if you go for one.
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neilgb ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 20 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 29 |
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'However they do mean the helm has to pull some string on the hoist (although a few chute boats have that as well) and they are pain when you capsize as you have to stuff the kite back in the bag with the boat on its side'
...its a matter of personal choice but on the 5000 the helm does not necessarily have to hoist or do the pole....crew two pulls to get the pole half out, hoist and then pole fully out (leaves the helm to balance/steer etc). If you do capsize with the kite up ( I have practised this a lot...) best way is for the crew/helm on the board to reach over, pull the kite onto the foredeck using the sheet initially (possibly into bag), right the boat and then quickly get things sorted and away you go !... On a general point I think bags are just as easy as chutes its just what you are used to....
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Jaws ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 27 Nov 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 92 |
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I was surprised nobody had mentioned a cherub... what's the ideal crew weight? And how well do they cut through chop? And what sort of skill level is necessary?
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ham4sand ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 27 Jul 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 452 |
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what about a nice cherub?
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this |
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Jaws ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 27 Nov 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 92 |
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Well there's an old 96 I14 up for sale fairly cheap, or a more modern one with retrofitted T-foils which must be 2003-5 for a bit more... the first wouldn't be competitive on any level I fear, and the latter would be a bit too much of a handful for me at the moment i reckon. I may just have to badger for a b14 try-out. With a 29er i'd be able to race against one other 29er. No more will arrive, I'd know if anyone was planning on getting one, and they aren't. The B14 there'd occasionally be another B14, there's a couple of MPSs of almost identical speed.
29er has a much better circuit, although that's not that important because I'm not all that serious as a racer, I'd do maybe 2 opens and the Nats tops. One of which at home... Likewise, B14 generally draws 11ish boats to events, not as many, but not to bad an issue. 29ers are a bit unstable, it always feels like the most important bit of going fast in them is staying upright. Don't know what B14 is like in that respect, shall have to try one out. 29er has trapeze, but i can sail a trapeze boat anyway, so no great educational loss. Hmmmmm decisions decisions decisions :)
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