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RS400 proposed changes
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Posts: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RS400 proposed changes
    Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 2:01pm
As Paul says, managed changed, be that in a SMOD or any other OD can be successful, I'd go so far as to say vital for continued success.  This is being driven by the owners, not the manufacturer; they are simply listening to their customers and offering solutions for consideration- simples.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea Jimbo. I'm just pointing out that it blows away the concept of one-design.


Jim, the Fireball is not one-design as I understand it. Over the years we've had HPS designs, Rondar designs, Delange designs and a variety of Winder designs. Plus sails from a of a huge variety of different lofts and a bewildering range of cuts. They all meet class rules, but they are certainly not the same design.

To my mind, one of the major selling points of the RS400 was that you didn't have to worry yourself about which hull or mast or sails manufacturer to go for, as there was no choice. Now there will be a choice of sails, some of the purity of the concept is lost.

Whether or not this is a bad thing is best left up to the owners.




Edited by Mikey 14778 - 13 Oct 10 at 2:02pm
Fireball 14778 - 'Cruel and Unusual'
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 2:13pm
The Fireball is a one design with built tolerences to allow (originally) for errors in home building. The changes made to the class certainly involved changes to the class rules. A trapeze was going to make a huge difference, and a spinnaker being added made a far bigger difference to the sail planoform than a change of mainsail design.
 
In fact, if you look at a 1960's Fireball main and a modern one, you'll find that while the basic shape might be recognizable, the cut is totally different, and will be much faster. When someone got a new, faster sail cut, did it ruin the class? When they went from cotton to terylene, did everybody say, oh, I'm out classed now, I won't bother?
 
As for taking a couple of kilos out of the bow, the difference between having a chute or not having a chute is far greater. In fact, I expext the weight difference in the ends between a wooden boat and an epoxy one would be as much as the difference between a 400 with an ali pole or a carbon one.
 
Has the Fireball had long lasting success because of or inspite of the changes? 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Mikey 14778


Jim, the Fireball is not one-design as I understand it.

Class Rule 6.1 would appear to disagree with you!
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 2:59pm
Some photo's at http://rokraider.zenfolio.com/p1059281610/h21572a23#h1dcfdff
Including a few where it's captioned as being an RS500. I think that speaks volumes!
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asterix View Drop Down
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Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 3:15pm
interesting that the 'rs500' has a rounded top main, while the 'rs400' has a square top
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 3:51pm
A thought just struck me - Imagine how much less fuss there would be if the scope of the changes (ie statement of intent) were given to the class two years ago. That way everyone knows the score, and people can adjust their annual spend accordingly.
 
Poorer cash flow for the LDC in the run up, but probably better buy in and probably a lump of sales once the new kit is available, and the longer term health of the class is maintained (or damaged less vs the current situation)...
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by hum3

That way everyone knows the score

Human nature doesn't work like that: once the wonderful improvement is anounced everyone wants it now... Especially if (as alleged) the new rags will be slightly cheaper...
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by hum3

That way everyone knows the score

Human nature doesn't work like that: once the wonderful improvement is anounced everyone wants it now... Especially if (as alleged) the new rags will be slightly cheaper...
 
Not quite - statement of intent would simply annouce the areas that would be reviewed two years in advance, not provide details of the options (ie "the sails will be reviewed to see if either a change in material or sailplan would enhance the enjoyment or reduce costs for the RS400 class") and certainly not commit to a particular direction.
 
Re your "everyone wants it now" point...
 
"Everything comes to those who..." The CA and manufacturer should be able to handle that pressure easily enough! In some ways it puts structure round the whole process which means the timetable it fixed...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 4:48pm
Has a date been given for these changes? AS far as I can see, they need a fair amount more development and the approval of the class, so I assume there will be no change for some time yet? After the next AGM?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

Originally posted by Mikey 14778

Nah, even if you're only a little bit competitive you buy new sails now and then and after a season there will be second-hand one available anyway. It's far more expensive/trouble to change class than buy some second-hand sails.
 
In my GP I bought a complete set of sails (mix and match sailmakers) which make my sails well below the average age of sails in the fleet for less then £250. 

Errrm, but these sails are supposed to last for years, so how many 2nd-hand new stylee sails do you think you're going to find on the market in 2 years time. I can count the number of 2nd hand new-style RS300 sails on offer on the fingers of one foot, so why would the 400 be any different?

And you're talking about a GP which is not a SMOD, ie market forces apply. You can forget that model here.


There's an unused RS400 mainsail and main and jib on the CA website now. I found at least three less than 2 season old suits of sails for the 400 this year with minimal effort.


After three or four years of mylar sails in the Tasar, second-hand ones remain as rare as the proverbial around here.  They pretty much stay 100% competitive until the day they suddenly start to fall apart.

In contrast, the dacrons would start to lose their top-line competitive edge early on, therefore encouraging them to move to the second-hand market.  They could then stay competitive at club level, and able to get into the top half-dozen at regattas, for many years.

Personally, I think I prefer the current option; cheaper sails that last well enough at top level.  Then again, even when the new mylars arrive I'll be reserving them strictly for titles and pre-title tuning, which many people don't like to do.
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