The RS400 Rumours thread.

Originally posted by Nick Peters Anybody who does not actively own a SMOD, and possibly thinks all SMOD manufacturers are the devil incarnate will think (replica sails) are great. Anybody who values the one-design ethos, an active association, and an active class manufacturer who is on the same side will think they have no place outside of training establishments or holiday companies.

Sorry but I rather resent the attempt to categorise me into one such camp or the other.

I helped run a (keelboat) SMOD class association for several years, was involved in commercial discussions with the manufacturer and don't consider SMOD manufacturers the devil incarnate. I'm also a businessman and recognise the need to make a profit. Nevertheless there is a reality that, with rare exceptions, prices have to reflect costs and if they don't, people will start voting with their wallets in an alternative direction. That's what's going on in the replica sail market. I recognise good SMOD manufacturers support the class and association, and that takes money. Most sailors are not stupid and realise that too but there comes a point where spares prices (like sails) reach a level above market rates where those good arguments start to unravel.

An argument can certainly be sustained that at open meeting/championship level sailors have bought into the SMOD concept and must support it. But I don't buy the argument that also applies to club racers sailing in handicap classes. They will buy SMOD sails if and only if the price premium isn't too high and there is neither a moral nor practical argument against their exercising choice as to how they spend their money. On the contrary, it's wrong to deny them the choice to take their boats outside class when they are only handicap racing.

It's up to SMOD manufacturers to decide whether that club sailor market is one they want and price accordingly, or whether to pursue only the open meeting sailors in a captive market. It's as simple as that.

If anyone actually wants a 400 main I have just seen one (brand new) advertised in the Y&Y classifieds for £400 bargain ...

Originally posted by andybury We have to face the facts dinghy sailing is taking a hit, less people coming in to the sport the old-guard are bored and unmotivated with the same all stuff. lots of clubs haven't changed the way they operate since the 70's neither have class associations churning out the same old format. We need to embrace change not moan about it. Some people just want to go to there club and sail followed by a beer and not have to paint walls strim the dinghy park etc. As in all clubs it the few who do all the work and I think this is beginning break down as the few are getting fewer. Face the facts we need to spend money on the infrastructure of the sport and clubs may have to increase fees to pay for it. "Just make it easier for people to pay" why cant clubs do monthly direct debits? There is nothing wrong with the 400 that cant easily be put right,...

I don't see the few getting fewer, maybe it is different living on the coast where each of the clubs has a core of 'locals' who grew up in the club. Older people may sail less but are still involved running the place, supporting their kids, socialising and getting stuck in to various projects. We also have many members who only sail perhaps a dozen times a year but are happy to pay a sub, do a couple of duties, prop up the bar etc. If anything the small boat clubs are doing well at the moment, perhaps a few people like me who have been scared off the cost of bigger boats? Many of us are members of more than one club, as they provide different aspects of sailing.

As for 'nothing wrong with the 400 that can't be easily put right' I don't understand that at all. The boat is fine as it is,selling more new boats, making it first choice over other classes, getting more people to get out on the circuit and race more often is the only problem, and that does not seem easy to put right. What changes would you make to 'put right' what you perceive to be the 'problem'?

If I had to point at something I wanted changed it would be the fixtures list, not the hardware.

Norbert, I understand your logic, but I would be afraid of sailmakers buying old boats and developing the sails, for instance making a flatter or fuller sail to suit a Nationals venue. An old boat in good condition with fittings that work can be fully competitive. I'm sure there are some that are beaten to death and flexible, but I'm equally sure there are some that have been looked after....

Buy a cheapish boat, get some secondhand sails, maybe a new jib and go for it.

When people buy their first 400, there is a lot to learn about boatspeed and tactics, new sails won't over-ride this.

If you think you have the talent to win, then you might justify spending a bit more.

If you've bought some new sails, then a set of replicas to use for windy club races makes sense. Your new sails will then last several seasons on the circuit.

Originally posted by RS400atC I don't see how RS brings anything to the ebay party. There  are a few sails on ebay now and then. They tend to sell as supply is limited and demand is plenty. Maybe if LDC offered part ex on new sails for nationals competitors and resold the trade ins at cost, that would facilitate?

As you say there are a few sails on ebay now and then. A lot of people may have old sails just hanging round the back of the garage doing nothing.

These people are possibly quite happy to do nothing with them and just pass them on to the next owner who will continue leave them stashed in the back of the garage.

However if there was a centralised facility that could put them up on ebay sell them on your behalf, can act as an honest broker who would forward your money once the sail's been delivered, then that may release a whole new load of sails into the market.

Now this honest broker doesn't have to be LDC it could easily be the CA, but i think i would like to have someone i could trust financily and LDC do seem to be pretty reliable and honest and up front, provided their fees are not too great and there was plenty of transparency most people would probably go along with them

However if this reduced their sales of new sails who knows what might happen!!