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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The RS400 Rumours thread.
    Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by Late starter

Originally posted by Mikey 14778


IMHO it's up to the CAs and the manufacturers to win our business by demonstrating genuine value for money. If LDC sails are
genuinely good value for money then they've got nothing to fear from Rooster stuff, which will always be at a disadvantage by
virtue of not be the 'proper' item. So why get worked up about it ?

That's probably the single most sensible post in this entire thread IMHO, well said.


No it isn't it is the most stupid thing ...

Class associaitons are not-for-profit "community" style organisations that operate for the collective benefit of all the owners of the boat, members & non-members indirectly.

They can only function because of the massive ammount of volunteer labour that is usually provided be a few keen owners.

If the wider community want so start behaving like consumers rather than members then they will find the whole sport will be considerably more expensive.

This same philosphy applies at sailing clubs too where they can only run for the cheap fees because of volunteers.

People need to get there heads round the fact that our sport is great because it functions like a members community where many people do stuff for free ... when those who usually do nothing start acting like grumpy consumers the house of cards start to fall and for sure everything will get more expensive.


I can't see the connection between the main thrust of this thead (ie the desirability and role of replica sails) and the voluntary resourcing of much of the club and class association infrastructure of UK dinghy sailing?   I've done decades as unpaid committee member, secretary, race officer, commodore etc etc so I "get" how the sport depends on volunteer labour.

However, why is any of this incompatible with a club or CA providing value for money?  
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tmoore View Drop Down
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Posts: 880 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tmoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 3:30pm

By your argument I am a 'I don't give a **** about rules' sailor simply because I have not joined the association this year. Does this mean I don't support the 300 class? No, I am away this summer and have offered my boat to be used as a demo boat to attract people to the class. Am I really damaging the class, boat values etc?

Tecnically my boat is also out of class because I put a different shaped mast roller on. It simply fits the mast shape better, reducing compression loads on the mast, hopefully making it last longer. Technically illegal, this is actually much heavier (so a disadvantage) but by reducing the chances of mast failure I am benefitting the class (cheaper premiums). 

Forget all the 'its worth it in the long run' etc. Give 5 simple reasons to join the association which Joe Bloggs, your new club sailor will understand. . .

As for sails, I would not mind someone using a rooster 300 sail bought when they were £200 cheaper. If someone went and bought one now there is not much cost difference I would not be too impressed however. I think the difference is that relatively few rooster sails were bought.

Incidentally, if you went to an event and someone ripped their race sail only having a replica available, would you allow them to race?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 3:39pm
Surely once you have bought a boat, whether it is a smod or development or anything inbetween, it is then yours. What you then do with it is entirely up to you. If you want to add wings and a trap, fine, if you want to burn it - up to you. If you want to put reef points in and sail to Iceland - good for you. If you want to join an owners group, also fine. If you want to join in local handicap racing, even if your boat is modified, fine - if it needs a new handicap, the system is in place to give you one. That isn't saying "only" local handicap racing, by the way - far more people sail this way than in class racing.

If you want to race against other boats the same, then that is a different kettle of fish. You then are agreeing to use a set of rules, whether it be "it must be 14 feet" or a tight set where everything is the same on all boats. If you don't abide by those rules, what is the point in joining in at all?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by tmoore

Give 5 simple reasons to join the association which Joe
Bloggs, your new club sailor will understand. . .



reduced depreciation
representation with organising bodies & manufacturers
training & support
commercial membership benefits
a wider network of sailing buddies outside of your puddle to enlighten you

+ access to events, maintenance of class rules, a website and communications
programme, coordinated sponsorship programmes, lobbying when required
(maybe with insurers or sail makers for instance), advice and support to help
you grow your fleet locally, a resource for selling second hand boats.... would
you like some more or do you think £45 is actually quite good value with these
insignificant attributes?

+1

(was going to post something very similar!)
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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:24pm
At the end of the day people can vote with their wallet. There was a poll on replica sails on here a few weeks back, which was approx 2/3 in favour and 1/3 against (at club level).  I suspect the perceived "rip off" factor for Laser sails is what tended to drive the result that way.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6 638&KW=replica+sails

Be interesting to run another poll about RS replica sails!  I bet the result would be different.


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Nick Peters View Drop Down
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Posts: 192 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nick Peters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:41pm

Trying to learn something from all this we thought to suggest to the RS Class Association to establish a specific Sails and Spares "for sale and wanted" page on the website for each class: Free of charge for members to advertise: Non-members and those on a strict budget can of course access it to make a purchase. Nevertheless a service that any CA should provide - I bet some already do.

When up and running we need a bit of a campaign to get people using it - there must be loads of RS sails in lofts (I can think of a few) that would make good (and class legal) racing sails at a fraction of new cost.

As soon as it becomes "the" place to buy and sell sails, it would be a whole lot easier than apolloduck or whatever.

Nick.

 
Nick


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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:43pm
Joe bloggs, when he has no intention of sailing outside his own puddle doen't consider that any of the reasons given apply to him.
reduced depreciation - "Its only me. Just one won't make a difference..."
representation with organising bodies & manufacturers - "So what"
training & support - "Don't want/need it" or "Can get same from local members on my puddle"
commercial membership benefits - "The benefits aren't worth the paper they're not written on"
a wider network of sailing buddies outside of your puddle to enlighten you - "So what"

Class websites should be open to all, not just members. What does restricted access say to a prospective joiner? There may be a case for a members only area but I have my doubts about this, too.

If you were to ask those who run a CA, I think they'd say that the effort put in is for the benefit of all owners, not just members, but this will not be considered by those who don't join.

Finally, if the SMOD CA is seen as an agency of the manufacturer there is an even greater disincentive against joining - fees propping up their profit margin etc.
Nick
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Guest View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:44pm

Originally posted by Nick Peters

Trying to learn something from all this we thought to suggest to the RS Class Association to establish a specific Sails and Spares "for sale and wanted" page on the website for each class: Free of charge for members to advertise: Non-members and those on a strict budget can of course access it to make a purchase. Nevertheless a service that any CA should provide - I bet some already do.

When up and running we need a bit of a campaign to get people using it - there must be loads of RS sails in lofts (I can think of a few) that would make good (and class legal) racing sails at a fraction of new cost.

As soon as it becomes "the" place to buy and sell sails, it would be a whole lot easier than apolloduck or whatever.

Nick.

 

MPS have been doing this for years ... see

http://www.mustoskiff.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=6

Used sails are often changing hands ...



Edited by Guest#260
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

MPS have been doing this for years ... see

http://www.mustoskiff.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=6

Used sails are often changing hands ...

So have the RS's so I'm a bit confused as to what Nick is suggesting!
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Norbert View Drop Down
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Posts: 351 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 5:15pm
Would it not be possible to set up a sail exchange shop on eBay where people can flog off their old unloved RS sails. Some one from LDC runs it, though it's not going to be particularly labour intensive, you buy sails at what they're worth and LDC get a small commission for running the thing and forward the balance to the seller. When you can buy old sails at their real market price then maybe the need to buy replica sails would reduce.
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