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Noah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 10 at 1:17pm
My 2p as one with no dog in this fight: The sail pictured is not a counterfeit, its a replica, because it is not presented as a genuine class sail. As I understand it the race picured is a handicap event, therefore the organisers can assign a PY to the boat with that rig on it. If they choose to assign the same handicap as an RS400 then so be it. The discussion re class racing at club level is a separate issue (I can't imagine, for example, Parkstone allowing replica sails in their SMOD fleets, but Frensham did / do for Lasers). It is safe to assume that replica sails would not be allowed on the circuit in the same way as I couldn't use a loose-footed sail in a circuit event, but perhaps could at club level. Using a replica sail for training and/or handicap events where class-compliance is not required allows retention of  the 'Sunday best' for opens & championships. The net result might be a poorer performance in the class event due to lack of familiarity with the genuine sail, in which case the buyer has shot himself in the foot.

Dialogue is all very well, but unless and until consumers vote with their hard-earned disposable income the status quo is likely to continue.

Of course any company needs to make a profit on their turnover, otherwise oblivion lies at the end of the road, but competition is healthy too.

To return to the pricing, Rooster quote £450 for an RS600 replica, LDC want £689.  (No online price from Rooster for the 400) If replica-buying Joe can't or won't justify the SMOD price and buys a replica at ~65% of the SMOD price, then he can pass on his previous sail to someone else & two sailors get 'improved' performance instead of none. Sail changing cycles differ between sailors - typically depending on ability - so one guy's tired sail is another's perfectly serviceable one.

Finally, I guess its indicative of something that the big lofts aren't into the replica market - reputation, margins, what?
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 12:50pm
Noah, good points, well made.  For me, with no axe to grind one way or tother, this matter of whether replica parts are "bad" or "good" comes down to a simple equation, that is whether or not the class has reached a 'critical mass' when manufacturer support is less important than 'class health'.   For example, RS don't seem to be making too many new boats, so the health of the class right now is dependant on the competitiveness, or not, of the existing stock, in the eyes of the sailors buying them.  As Noah says, buying replica sails may mean a decent set of 'official' sails being made available, 2nd hand, to a class newcomer - in my mind, a postive outcome.  The big lofts won't go into the replica market because they want the manufacturer's business and don't want to damage their margins on new sales of sails (pardon the pun) where the volume and margins are going to be greater than the 'after market' in most cases.  New sail sales are often guaranteed by rules forbidding use of 'replicas' at class events.  No issue with this, after all, if you don't like it, buy something else. 

However, I do wonder how much more popular, and how much more developed, boats like the RS400 or Laser2000 would be, if sail maker choice was now opened up for all events, working on the assumption than in both cases the volume of new boat sales has meant both RS & Laser respectively have more than passed their ROI "point" and would still benefit from new hull, spares and accessories sales, if not from sail sales.

They could always charge a 'royalty' fee to compensate themselves and allow class-legal sails to be marked in the same way the Laser ones are now....


Edited by getafix
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Norbert View Drop Down
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Posts: 351 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by getafix

Noah, good points, well made.  For me, with no axe to grind one way or tother, this matter of whether replica parts are "bad" or "good" comes down to a simple equation, that is whether or not the class has reached a 'critical mass' when manufacturer support is less important than 'class health'.   For example, RS don't seem to be making too many new boats, so the health of the class right now is dependant on the competitiveness, or not, of the existing stock, in the eyes of the sailors buying them.  As Noah says, buying replica sails may mean a decent set of 'official' sails being made available, 2nd hand, to a class newcomer - in my mind, a postive outcome.  The big lofts won't go into the replica market because they want the manufacturer's business and don't want to damage their margins on new sales of sails (pardon the pun) where the volume and margins are going to be greater than the 'after market' in most cases.  New sail sales are often guaranteed by rules forbidding use of 'replicas' at class events.  No issue with this, after all, if you don't like it, buy something else. 

However, I do wonder how much more popular, and how much more developed, boats like the RS400 or Laser2000 would be, if sail maker choice was now opened up for all events, working on the assumption than in both cases the volume of new boat sales has meant both RS & Laser respectively have more than passed their ROI "point" and would still benefit from new hull, spares and accessories sales, if not from sail sales.

They could always charge a 'royalty' fee to compensate themselves and allow class-legal sails to be marked in the same way the Laser ones are now....


Well said!
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 2:32pm

Originally posted by Norbert


...However, I do wonder how much more popular, and how much more developed, boats like the RS400 or Laser2000 would be, if sail maker choice was now opened up for all events, working on the assumption than in both cases the volume of new boat sales has meant both RS & Laser respectively have more than passed their ROI "point" and would still benefit from new hull, spares and accessories sales, if not from sail sales...



Well said!
[/QUOTE]

LDC price the boats agressively to keep the barrier of entry as low as possible. They do make bigger margins on sails. This was all discussed at the  2007 RS400 Nationals, where we had a very frank discussion with two LDC representatives.

People sail SMODS because they are SMODS. Giving them a development element goes against the entire ethos of their existence. The Merlin is there in the case of the 400, so there's no reason whatever to open up sail development. It would just push up new boat prices, making the situtation worse.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by hum3


LDC price the boats agressively to keep the barrier of entry as low as possible. They do make bigger margins on sails. This was all discussed at the  2007 RS400 Nationals, where we had a very frank discussion with two LDC representatives.

People sail SMODS because they are SMODS. Giving them a development element goes against the entire ethos of their existence. The Merlin is there in the case of the 400, so there's no reason whatever to open up sail development. It would just push up new boat prices, making the situtation worse.



There's a classification between SMOD (RS400) and Restricted (Merlin); they're called 'One Design', where the hull shape is controlled within tolerances and there are varying degress of freedom over fittings, spars & sails. Price comparisons between the sail lofts at the front of any given class show little difference in list prices. Where the one-design gains is in the ability to negotiate discounts in a competitive market-place, whilst the SMOD audience are stuck & the supplier knows it.

An interesting comparison might be made of the total cost of ownership from new for (say) five years of a SMOD (RS400) vs a one-design (someone care to name a similar boat?) from a mainstream manufacturer (Ovi, Winder, Hartley) factoring in (e.g.) one suit of sails per year. Ignore resale values because they depend largely on class popularity.

Discuss.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Don't mind me Mike, there's plenty of room for the ICON and a 400 beater.  The biggest challenge is positioning it so it doesn't look just like an ICON with a kite tagged on.  In fact, I have been advocating (and designing) such a boat for years, see this thread from 2006 and this design on boatdesign.net

I don't believe such a boat needs to be significantly faster than a 400, though that would be nice.  I believe a standard NS with a moderate kite would be 400 speed, and the ICON is a little bigger.  The biggest problem with the 400 and 200 IMO, is the weight and strength requirements of each.  I have owned a 200 and know that whilst it is the right size for my wife to crew, I am too big to helm - I sink the stern.  The 400 is great for my weight (and a fabulous boat), but requires more strength from the crew than my wife has.  The jib sheet loads are high and you need good abs.  The kite system is a hassle, with the wing wang and the single patch (has that changed).  What I would like is a boat that only requires the strength of the 200, but has 400 performance and weight carrying.  As someone pointed out earlier the 400 is the only hiking assy between the 200 (a low performance boat with basically a hoistable genoa) and the B14 (basically a twin trapeze boat with sit up practise).  That is a yawning gap...

The opinion in the front of our boat yesteraday was that the loads on the kite sheet were excessive in gusty 25kts or so. The 1:1 jibsheets were not a problem, just give it to the helm to pull!

Moral is you can't please anyone all of the time!

But I can't see any other class we would have preferred to be in yesterday. Wish I'd had a gps, but I don't think there was time to read it.
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 3:53pm


[/QUOTE]


People sail SMODS because they are SMODS. Giving them a development element goes against the entire ethos of their existence. The Merlin is there in the case of the 400, so there's no reason whatever to open up sail development. It would just push up new boat prices, making the situtation worse.

[/QUOTE]

IMO this over simplifies the argument I was making and misses the point somewhat. 

a) I just can't see why such a move would push up new 400 prices, if RS are selling hulls, rigs, foils & new boat packages at a loss (or at cost) just to generate margin on <after-market> sales of sails then I'd be bl$$dy amazed!  It might work for Tesco's with Turkeys at X-Mas but me thinks that's a slightly different economy of scale....

b) I can't see RS needing to push up prices because of lost revenue on 400 sail sales, as I said, they could charge a royalty for effectively doing nothing which is much 'cleaner' profit from their point of view and would require a lot less handling & admin that actually processing orders for sails

c) increased activity in the class CANNOT be a bad thing for RS

d) comparing the Merlin to the RS400 is a nonsense and irrelevant (sorry, sounds harsh but that's my opinion in this case)
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 4:06pm

Originally posted by Noah


....
An interesting comparison might be made of the total cost of ownership from new for (say) five years of a SMOD (RS400) vs a one-design (someone care to name a similar boat?) from a mainstream manufacturer (Ovi, Winder, Hartley) factoring in (e.g.) one suit of sails per year. Ignore resale values because they depend largely on class popularity.

Discuss.

Surely resale value is one of the key features, although it's not guaranteed?

Many people buying new boats are upgrading from one worth say 50% of the value. When buying a boat I consider the ease with which I could sell it after a year if it does not work out, and what I might lose on it. Obviously this isn't fool proof, but I thought the 400 was low risk in this department. A Merlin or even 505 might get outclassed by some development in new boats. Parker made more than 25 Marks of that one-design IIRC. The Winder Merlins are not far from a one-design in their own right. I can't comment on depreciation as I haven't dared find out what a new one costs!

Buying something like the Icon or Alto seems high risk to me, as it could flop or the early boats get made obsolete. Whereas the might of RS can put the RS100 in place as a fleet and we will all be confident its here to stay. Mind you I did hear some Vareo sailors wondering what the 100 had done to used vareo values...

At least yesterday felt like value for money!

 
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by turnturtle



Nice idea Noah, but you can't exclude resale values when working out a
TCO.


Yes you can if you haven't sold it at the end of that time

Do it both ways. The results will be interesting either way.
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Norbert View Drop Down
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Posts: 351 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by hum3

LDC price the boats agressively to keep the barrier of entry as low as possible. They do make bigger margins on sails. This was all discussed at the  2007 RS400 Nationals, where we had a very frank discussion with two LDC representatives.


This marketing concept is fundamentally flawed when you consider the antagonism that rip off sail prices create. The most obvious parallel is with printer manufacturers stitching up their users into buying their over priced inferior cartridges.

Long live the replica sail makers and long may sailors continue to use them.
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