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    Posted: 29 May 10 at 5:28pm

Originally posted by timeintheboat

MB the RS300 is the only RS mainstream boat that has gone through a rig (sail) change AFAIK (can you still buy bothe sails for the 300). I've had least three different Laser sails in my time - hence my evolved OD remark.

The RS200 and RS400 are now as was - unless some one is going to tell me otherwise.

Also (not you) isn't the "gap" between the RS400 and B14 the 59er?

RS200 changed from single to double patch kite after we developed a better system whcih was adoped as standard.

RS800 mast chaged from SS to Selden

Both improvements IMO
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 10 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

LDC's problem is they don't sell many new boats.


The CA's problem is that people don't join the circuit etc with the 700 odd existing boats.



If you get involved enough in the administration of the sport you'll probably change your mind. In my experience to have no new boats being built is a big problem for the CA, because otherwise they are trying to get out an ever diminishing pool of old boats, which in themselves are increasingly decrepit. In addition it demonstrates a fundamental problem in the popularity of the class. There must be something very badly wrong with a SMOD class' appeal if it's no longer shifting new boats, because that's the lowest hassle way to get a championship capable boat, and a lot of the advantages of SMOD classes are about low hassle.

If sales stop then before long there are not only no new boats, but also no nearly new boats, which means no top level sailor is going to want to join the class unless they are as interested in boat maintenance and ownership as they are in racing. There are classes that can survive like that, normally in very special situations like the Thames Raters, but its unusual. This is why almost all class associations pay a lot of attention to builders and their relationship with the builder.

I don't have any particular info or opinion on the state of the RS400 and how RS view it, and as I say I hadn't heard this mast rumour before it was posted and have no idea whether there's any truth in it or support for it. I also have no idea what RS or the CA have planned for the class' future. It would suprise me if they weren't concerned to some extent about sales - to what extent I have no idea.

Edited by JimC
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 10 at 6:09pm
I think part of the reason no new boats are being made is that an old boat is
just as competitive as a new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 10 at 7:58pm

Originally posted by Jamesd

I think part of the reason no new boats are being made is that an old boat is
just as competitive as a new one.

deffo +1

my 976 is very very competetive, the hull is in great condition, and replacing sails does a grand job.

I have only had a new main for the last 2 years out of 7, but the jib needs replacing as much as spinnys do.

The club racing at QM is utterly fantastic, and some do the circuit, but not all.

I have said it many times before the 400 is one of my favourite boats for its all round entertainment, and tactical racing.

I wouldn't want it changed tbh.

P.S.  you cant compare a B14 cos in the light stuff the crew lies accross the bow, in the 400 no need for that behavior. Possibly compare the 59er but u need to be heavy for that, and the 400 does not need a heavy crew, the joy is "getting it right" and seeing the benefits before your very eyes.

Good design I say.

Timg



Edited by timg
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Posts: 351 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 12:15pm
Rooster develop new RS400 sails...
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 12:19pm

That particular set of replica sails has been around a fair while now.

Performance does not seem any different from the 'real' thing.
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Posts: 403 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GybeFunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by timeintheboat

MB the RS300 is the only RS mainstream boat that has gone through a rig (sail) change AFAIK (can you still buy bothe sails for the 300). I've had least three different Laser sails in my time - hence my evolved OD remark.

The RS200 and RS400 are now as was - unless some one is going to tell me otherwise.

Also (not you) isn't the "gap" between the RS400 and B14 the 59er?

RS200 changed from single to double patch kite after we developed a better system whcih was adoped as standard.

RS800 mast chaged from SS to Selden

Both improvements IMO

I never fully understood why the 200 went double patch, I have sailed both types and in my opinion there isnt a lot between them. The double patch spinnakers suffer in waves as when you ship water over the front upwind it all collects in the spinnaker leaving you with a massive bag of water that falls back into the cockpit, if you dont drain this bag prior to hoist you rip the kite on the jib tracks. The single patch spinnaker was great as when you went round the leeward mark as a helm you could reach down with your right hand and pull the last bit of kite in with ease, leaving the crew free to do other things. If I bought an old boat with a single patch spinnaker I definitely wouldnt waste my money on an upgrade.

Getting back on topic the 200 kite change was early on in its life which means fewer boats were 'outclassed', the same cant be said for the 400.
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by GybeFunny

Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by timeintheboat

MB the RS300 is the only RS mainstream boat that has gone through a rig (sail) change AFAIK (can you still buy bothe sails for the 300). I've had least three different Laser sails in my time - hence my evolved OD remark.

The RS200 and RS400 are now as was - unless some one is going to tell me otherwise.

Also (not you) isn't the "gap" between the RS400 and B14 the 59er?

RS200 changed from single to double patch kite after we developed a better system whcih was adoped as standard.

RS800 mast chaged from SS to Selden

Both improvements IMO

I never fully understood why the 200 went double patch, I have sailed both types and in my opinion there isnt a lot between them. The double patch spinnakers suffer in waves as when you ship water over the front upwind it all collects in the spinnaker leaving you with a massive bag of water that falls back into the cockpit, if you dont drain this bag prior to hoist you rip the kite on the jib tracks. The single patch spinnaker was great as when you went round the leeward mark as a helm you could reach down with your right hand and pull the last bit of kite in with ease, leaving the crew free to do other things. If I bought an old boat with a single patch spinnaker I definitely wouldnt waste my money on an upgrade.

Getting back on topic the 200 kite change was early on in its life which means fewer boats were 'outclassed', the same cant be said for the 400.

The biggest issue with the single patch solution was that the sock went back through the crew cockpit space and was always getting trodden on and hence the sock used to pull off the chute mouth. Also there was a lot more kite/sock contact leading to more friction.

The final sulution wasn't exactly as we had prototyped but I think it was a definate improvement.
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Posts: 247 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by GybeFunny

I never fully understood why the 200 went double patch...

...Getting back on topic the 200 kite change was early on in its life which means fewer boats were 'outclassed', the same cant be said for the 400.

The main reasons were to protect the kite better by sharing the load from the kite retrieval line across two patches, and reduced friction in the system which makes hoists and drops a little bit easier and prevents other isses such as the kite halyard chewing through the chute mouth. Also the twin patch means the halyard routing doesn't go all the way round the boat so less opportunity for someone to be standing on it at that crucial point...

Having used both, prefer the twin patch.

Re the 400 changing - any changes to the hull that alters the performance is doomed to fail. You are effectively starting a new class, with a ready made direct competitor. If you want to start a new class then do it properly, and design something from scratch.

Rig changes are easier to absorb, but I really don't think there is a problem with the 400 rig. It works really well as it is. More power would mean larger 'boys' required which isn't really going to help. I think there are other reasons why the fleet has diminished in popularity. Perhaps it's in the nature of SMODS? I don't know, but I really think making fundamental changes will take away some of 400's strengths, and not replace them.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 5:11pm

Originally posted by turnturtle

except the guy who bought them is supporting counterfeiting and clearly
does not understand the bigger picture or respect for the fellow competitors
who are prepared to pay for the genuine article to keep things fair on the
race course and depreciation low in the classifieds... perhaps he should have
sold the 400 and bought a Merlin, that way he could have had free choice
over his sailmaker.

The photo is taken in a handicap event. By buying that main and selling an older one to another boat, another boat was made competitive in our handicap fleet for sensible money. If he sold his RS, that would reduce the value of the others on the market (one more boat for sale) and an also reduce the value the rest of the fleet gets from racing against him. As it is, the 400 is the thing to have for level racing within our handicap fleet. Reducing the 400's by one might damage the critical mass.

At least he's an association member, as for the other two....
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