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Carbon or not Carbon

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Smight at BBSC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Smight at BBSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Carbon or not Carbon
    Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:17am
I think a lot of mast were manufactured with, fibreglass/carbon top sections and alloy bottom sections, 29ers, B14s, Lightning 268 maybe? Some of the singlehanded classes that went to carbon such as the europe I believe had a transition stage?


RS600 988
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:22am
Oh and the most significant carbon benefit?

Surely it's lack of oxidisation, that was the killer for us in windsurfing,
carbon doesn't rust well not rust oxidise.. You never could tell how bad
the alloy oxidisation was up inside the section and the masts just
degraded so fast.

Carbon weightwise never really cut it, since it had to be made thicker and
built stronger in order to prevent it snapping, so the key factors were
gust response more predictable bend characteristics and better wear and
tear, no erosion due to oxidisation.

But something I've notice on the jolly old Alto the carbon mast is getting
UV damaged, obviously we don't get that in windsurfing cos we keep our
masts in padded bags when not in use.

So this lacquer, I'm going to guess some must have been applied at the
factory and it's something I should be thinking about re-applying some
time soon? Linky anyone?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:29am

I'm not sure about JimC's comments about the RS400.

The current kite size is useable on a reach as well as a run in quite a lot of breeze. Many of us use these boats for club races where you cannot always expect windward-leeward courses, and the present rig gives a good account of itself for club sailors like me. As for reducing the size of the 'white' sails, well that would not be so great on a fetch or close reach. Or in lighter weather with some waves to drive through.

The current National Champions are not big people, and it was windy enough at Mounts Bay last year.

The main gain from carbon would be less mass aloft, which should give better motion through waves and chop. Also all those rigs which got broken at Hayling last year could have been repaired. Hopefully. A carbon boom would be nice, or even an ali one without the corrosion trap sheet fittings in the tension side of the tube...Also to get the full benefit of different bend characteristics of carbon, you might need more advanced rig controls, one thing affects another and you could change the whole ethos of the boat to the point where is does not fit the niche that it currently enjoys.

There have been long beats racing against Laser 4000's where I have thought 'why doesn't this thing have a trapeze?'

Like all boats, it's a compromise.

Maybe as ali masts get more expensive and carbon ones less so, a carbon mast designed to have the same bend with less weight would be the way to go. Meanwhile I will enjoy it as it is and try not to 'Hayling' the mast!

I agree with Mike L. Paint it white. Carbon degrading in sunlight does not look cool. The carbon-look novelty was 15 years ago.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:35am

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Just wondered if anyone's ever tried carbon alloy hybrid style masts.

Alloy base and carbon top section where the gust response and return to
centre is needed.

Replacement cost would be cheaper.

And rampant corrosion in the middle?

I think the Bethwaite boats have been through this, some of them using glass top sections to get a lot of flex on a rigidly rigged (but curved) metal bottom section.

Replacement cost woud not be any cheaper, SMOD retailers would charge what they could get away with.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:40am

GRF the normal laquer to use is International Perfection 2 pack varnish. It has among the best UV blocking for a clear coating. If you get a couple of syringes (ebay), you can mix small quantities properly and the £30 tin will do a lot of masts. Less than half a tin did 3 coats on an RS600 mast.

Cheers.

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:40am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Just wondered if anyone's ever
tried carbon alloy hybrid style masts. Alloy base and carbon top section
where the gust response and return to centre is needed. Replacement
cost would be cheaper.


And rampant corrosion in the middle?


I think the Bethwaite boats have been through this, some of them
using glass top sections to get a lot of flex on a rigidly rigged (but
curved) metal bottom section.


Replacement cost woud not be any cheaper, SMOD retailers would
charge what they could get away with.



Well I did wonder, great minds obviously think alike..

But yes, the alloy corrosion would always be an issue ever present.

But then you get that with all alloy masts surely, you are just probably not
as aware of it.

Half and half would be just a cost priced compromise.

Carbon will always be superior.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:42am
Originally posted by RS400atC

GRF the normal laquer to use is International
Perfection 2 pack varnish. It has among the best UV blocking for a clear
coating. If you get a couple of syringes (ebay), you can mix small quantities
properly and the £30 tin will do a lot of masts. Less than half a tin did 3
coats on an RS600 mast.


Cheers.



Thanks for that, how often does this stuff usually need to be applied?

Is it an annual affair, or every couple of years?
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 9:46am
What's the chatter with the 400 getting a new rig...surely
they are still selling enough not to bother revamping it
without alienating a whole pile of boat owners?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 10:07am
I've seen too many degrading carbon masts to be very convinced about any kind of varnish. Apart from anything else its difficult to spot any patches where its worn away.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dan Vincent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 10 at 10:26am

One advantage of aluminum from the point of view of a class hoping to maintain affordable racing, is that it is easier to define and write rules around, because of the material and the manufacturing method...

It is often suggested that carbon is coming down in price and will one day be more economic than aluminum, but carbon comes in so many different flavours, can be laid up in different orientations, and measurers can only practically measure some external charaterisitcs e.g. outer layer (unless) you cut the mast open, length, tip weight, etc.  Finn marketing blurb says it better than I can...

"Wilke masts are manufactured using pre-impregnated carbon from the Advanced Composites Group, one of the leading Prepreg manufacturers. A Finn mast, that possesses the exact bending, twisting and dynamic behaviour that an athlete asks for is the result of a careful selection of the carbon fibre, the resin type and content, as well as a sophisticated layup. The quality management at Wilke Swiss Marine Composites ensures that the strict tolerances in the manufacturing process are met." 

Classes which have switched to carbon, have produced extremely expensive masts (Around £2500 ex VAT for an off the shelf Finn Mast (I bet you would pay more for a custom effort) ref...

http://www.suntouched.co.uk/suntouched_sailboats2b_005.htm

So unless tightly controlled (as in a SMOD such as... D1, Musto, RS800) expect change to carbon masts to be accompanied by costs not just increasing but multiplying.

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